What is the definition of a Near Death Experience?

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poeticblue

member
We’ve had people often share their stories about their NDE’s stating that they’ve actually died, yet they still live to tell us about it which is contradictory.

A near death experience according to what I’ve gathered is just that: Near death. Ones spiritual cord was never severed from their body and wherever they were during their near death more than likely took place in the astral realm (if anywhere at all).

I’m not an expert on this, but I’ve seen plenty of members mention NDEs through out this forum and noticed that none have said anything in this section yet.

So let’s start with clarifying what an NDE actually is and then perhaps share some supporting facts, experiences, and articles. Just a suggestion.

:)
 

mac

Administrator
I go even tighter. A near-death-experience is one that occurs when an individual appears near to death. There isn't a way to measure how close the death of a person's body might actually have been and it's something that likely will vary somewhat from one individual to another. BUT I agree totally that it's not a case of someone passing over and then being 'brought back to life' as so often is claimed.

For anyone who doesn't appreciate why, the reason is that death of the body comes about at the same time as - or because of - the severing of the so-called silver cord. Quite what the exact order of events is I don't know. Is it death of the body resulting in the severing of the silver cord or is it the severing of the silver cord that results in death of the physical body? Maybe that's a distinction without a difference! Either way that severing is not reversible and death is always the outcome.

I do hope your thread encourages members who are interested in NDE to ask about what happens etc. :)
 

poeticblue

member
mac,

I get the feeling this isn’t working at all lol. Oh well, we tried. I guess we will give it more time but I doubt it’ll help.
 

mac

Administrator
mac,

I get the feeling this isn’t working at all lol. Oh well, we tried. I guess we will give it more time but I doubt it’ll help.
We're deep into the usual slack-summer hiatus.

Schools are out for summer, parents are taking vacations with their kids, the weather is fine and RVers are thronging the highways and filling the campgrounds; folk generally are looking for outdoor pastimes and activities....

From late spring to early fall website activity level has often been low so I don't think you should get too downhearted that little interest in this forum's subject is apparent. :)
 

poeticblue

member
We're deep into the usual slack-summer hiatus.

Schools are out for summer, parents are taking vacations with their kids, the weather is fine and RVers are thronging the highways and filling the campgrounds; folk generally are looking for outdoor pastimes and activities....

From late spring to early fall website activity level has often been low so I don't think you should get too downhearted that little interest in this forum's subject is apparent. :)

I’m not too disappointed, just perplexed as to why NDEs are often bought up in certain threads that have nothing to do with the topic. Yet here we are with a section pertaining to the subject and there is no participation. :D
 

mac

Administrator
I’m not too disappointed, just perplexed as to why NDEs are often bought up in certain threads that have nothing to do with the topic. Yet here we are with a section pertaining to the subject and there is no participation. :D

It's a puzzle! :)
 

Hazada Guess

Occasional Contributor
I'll get it started.I don't. know about NDE's but I had an out of body experience when I was about 7.I was in bed with Whooping cough (you don't hear much about that now here in the UK),I floated above my body many times,it felt like I was leaving earth once but I'm afraid of heights,so I willed myself back down.lol.
 

mac

Administrator
I'm a little surprised no-one has picked up on this NDE forum, but new members may be coming to ALF with altogether different expectations about what they'll find here and those expectations may be shaped by the way folk found their way in the first place.

Few divulge how they discovered ALF and equally few say anything about themselves in the member intro area, despite receiving a welcome message that encourages them to do so. Hence we have no idea what they're interested in or looking for and couldn't tailor the website to try to engage with their interests. Perhaps they don't have any particular interest and are looking for spooky excitement and entertainment - who knows?

I'm often the only individual on ALF. Of course there's the Transatlantic time difference that puts me out of sync. with many members but even in winter, when I'm in AZ, it's little different. I check frequently who else is online while I am and frequently there's no-one. You can disregard the often-indicated 70 or so 'guests' because most of them are bots and web crawlers - I've analysed the data on many occasions.
 

Ruby

Significant Contributor
I'm interested! There's a very charismatic character in Texas called Martha Atkins who specialises in helping people close to death and their families. She has talked about her experiences.
 

mac

Administrator
I'm interested! There's a very charismatic character in Texas called Martha Atkins who specialises in helping people close to death and their families. She has talked about her experiences.
Then write a posting about your interest etc! Remember, though, that helping someone whose passing is approaching isn't the so-called near-death-experience. Postings on help etc. should go elsewhere.
 
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Ruby

Significant Contributor
There's a TED talk online in which she talks of dying people who seem to be able to see things invisible to others around them. Worth a look. It's interesting that the reports of near death experience involve patients seeing only those who predeceased them. Of course, death itself may be completely different and just be a blank, who knows, and the power that the mind seems to have to know things beyond the capacity of the senses just stops at that point. At present the mind seems to go on working for about three minutes after death, from what I've understood. After that there's too much damage and the patient can't be resuscitated. I know the point at which death occurs is debatable, but I've only read about it in general terms.
 

RobertaGrimes

Administrator
Staff member
There's a TED talk online in which she talks of dying people who seem to be able to see things invisible to others around them. Worth a look. It's interesting that the reports of near death experience involve patients seeing only those who predeceased them. Of course, death itself may be completely different and just be a blank, who knows, and the power that the mind seems to have to know things beyond the capacity of the senses just stops at that point. At present the mind seems to go on working for about three minutes after death, from what I've understood. After that there's too much damage and the patient can't be resuscitated. I know the point at which death occurs is debatable, but I've only read about it in general terms.

Dear Ruby and others, the following things are true:

1) NDEs are unrelated to actual death - these are simply two different phenomena. NDEs involve out-of-body travel in the astral, and more extensive ones will sometimes find the experiencer arriving at the barrier to the actual afterlife - so people are told that if they proceed any further they won't be able to come back - but we are told by those who actually know that a completed death is always a one-way trip.

2) Actually, we have extensive knowledge of the process of a normal, planned death, from the period a few days before death to the happy arrival in the afterlife levels. The whole death process is amazingly consistent from person to person and across cultures. My book, The Fun of Dying, outlines the process, and there are others who have documented it as well.

3) Insofar as we can determine, the severing of the silver cord is the moment when death is irrevocable, although - as Mac said above - the cause-and-effect order may be debatable.

4) To go at death from the viewpoint of the physical, as you are doing here, is kind of meaningless, since all you can catalog this way is the shutting-down of the brain and other organs. In fact, the mind is free of the brain usually some hours before it starts to shut down, and it is during that brain-free period when the body is nevertheless still alive that people with dementia will suddenly be normal and lucid, when those who were in comas will wake up and talk normally, and so on. The mind is much healthier and more powerful once the brain is no longer in the way!
 

Auras

Occasional Contributor
We’ve had people often share their stories about their NDE’s stating that they’ve actually died, yet they still live to tell us about it which is contradictory.

A near death experience according to what I’ve gathered is just that: Near death. Ones spiritual cord was never severed from their body and wherever they were during their near death more than likely took place in the astral realm (if anywhere at all).

I’m not an expert on this, but I’ve seen plenty of members mention NDEs through out this forum and noticed that none have said anything in this section yet.

So let’s start with clarifying what an NDE actually is and then perhaps share some supporting facts, experiences, and articles. Just a suggestion.

:)

Great topic. I love talking about these. I have read some cases where the person has been pronounced dead which is quite interesting.

This is a old article, but I found it interesting.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...ences-what-it-feels-like-to-die-10249700.html
 

Ruby

Significant Contributor
Thanks for posting this interesting article, Auras, from a British newspaper, as opposed to a spiritualist source. My son seemed to be able to speak clearly shortly before his death, though not for the previous day. We weren't called into the room in time to witness this as not any longer the next of kin, presumably, as he had married his girlfriend a fortnight before.
 
According to people with near death experience, “Its like entering into a realm, where we don’t have any feeling or any senses.”

Study suggest that our consciousness works even after the heart stops working or body fail to move.

Many survivor of cardiac attack has reported to remember the doctor’s effort to save him or the surrounding conversation after getting live again.
 

mac

Administrator
According to people with near death experience, “Its like entering into a realm, where we don’t have any feeling or any senses.”

Study suggest that our consciousness works even after the heart stops working or body fail to move.

Many survivor of cardiac attack has reported to remember the doctor’s effort to save him or the surrounding conversation after getting live again.
welcome to ALF :)

The subject of so-called near death experience is one often raised on ALF because many think it means an individual died and was then 'brought back to life'. That's wrong because death is irreversible and final.

The term 'near death' simply implies the individual appeared to be - and may actually have been - near to death but ultimately survived and lived on in this world.
 

kim

Significant Contributor
I’m not an expert on this, but I’ve seen plenty of members mention NDEs through out this forum and noticed that none have said anything in this section yet.


Hi Poeticblue, I am certain I was one of those members who mentioned NDEs on the forum in inappropriate places. I was gone for a while from the forum. I have started back again, and I just noticed this thread. I had an NDE in 1983 and have been experiencing scenes witnessed during the NDE for the last 37 years. It is spooky at times but other times can be comfortably affirming of where I am in my life journey.
 

mac

Administrator
Although the so-called near death experience is unlike actual bodily death in important ways the experience - or reading about others' experiences - can be a great opener to beginning to look into the notion of survival. But it seems that the NDE per se is of more interest to some/many than going further with it. A similar situation may be found where physical phenomena in a certain kind of mediumship are more interesting than delving into the aspects of survival and communication they foreshadow.

I have been surprised, and somewhat disappointed, that creating a dedicated forum to discuss this phenomenon hasn't resulted in much interest or the arrival of new members. :( Mostly we're just 'preaching to the choir' here if the subject does come up.
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
l
Then write a posting about your interest etc!

Remember, though, that helping someone whose passing is approaching isn't the so-called near-death-experience. Postings on help etc. should go elsewhere.

I believe that NDE's are one of the biggest mysteries out there. I have read hundreds of these and can't help but think that they seem "staged" but by whom? It is common for the experiencer to say they want to stay there but are told they have to return (to their bodies). If so, then why does a person have one - what would be the purpose. It seems as if someone wants them to go back and tell what they experienced, but again, why? Many times a person sees things that haven't been invented at the time of their experience, but are invented in the future (i.e. a lady had an NDE in 1962 when she was a teenager, and saw a laptop computer. She asked what it was and was told she would be using one in the future. When laptops came out, she was flabbergasted, and she eventually was using one on a daily basis for her job. There are other similar cases, so to say NDE's are a product of one's subconscious mind is erroneous. To say she just stumbled onto a person using a laptop computer makes no sense, as why would a laptop computer be necessary in a non-physical reality?
 

mac

Administrator
I believe that NDE's are one of the biggest mysteries out there.

Not so for me, Lola


I have read hundreds of these and can't help but think that they seem "staged" but by whom?

I don't have your exposure to so many but the accounts I've heard didn't sound "staged" as you suggest.


It is common for the experiencer to say they want to stay there but are told they have to return (to their bodies). If so, then why does a person have one - what would be the purpose.

The near-death-experience isn't the same as Astral Projection for an Out-of-Body-Experience. As I view an NDE it comes about as a consequence of severe physical trauma leaving a person's body badly injured and it's in such conditions that the consequent near-death-experience occurs. They're not something a person elects to have. If you take a look at ALF member kim's postings about her experience in my homeland it will give you an insight into what happened to her.

It seems as if someone wants them to go back and tell what they experienced, but again, why?

That's not my conclusion. The individual tells what's happened because it's been so dramatic although there may be some spirit orchestration of events to achieve a general or specific outcome - that's my conjecture though.


Many times a person sees things that haven't been invented at the time of their experience, but are invented in the future (i.e. a lady had an NDE in 1962 when she was a teenager, and saw a laptop computer. She asked what it was and was told she would be using one in the future. When laptops came out, she was flabbergasted, and she eventually was using one on a daily basis for her job. There are other similar cases, so to say NDE's are a product of one's subconscious mind is erroneous. To say she just stumbled onto a person using a laptop computer makes no sense, as why would a laptop computer be necessary in a non-physical reality?

It's oft been said that humankind's inventions were inspired by spirit-side scientists and who can prove that's so or not? It's certainly interesting, even intriguing, and for many - I'm guessing - far more interesting than the totally inescapable follow on that life is eternal - we humans survive death of the body and we always have done.
 

baob

Active Member
l


I believe that NDE's are one of the biggest mysteries out there. I have read hundreds of these and can't help but think that they seem "staged" but by whom? It is common for the experiencer to say they want to stay there but are told they have to return (to their bodies). If so, then why does a person have one - what would be the purpose. It seems as if someone wants them to go back and tell what they experienced, but again, why? Many times a person sees things that haven't been invented at the time of their experience, but are invented in the future (i.e. a lady had an NDE in 1962 when she was a teenager, and saw a laptop computer. She asked what it was and was told she would be using one in the future. When laptops came out, she was flabbergasted, and she eventually was using one on a daily basis for her job. There are other similar cases, so to say NDE's are a product of one's subconscious mind is erroneous. To say she just stumbled onto a person using a laptop computer makes no sense, as why would a laptop computer be necessary in a non-physical reality?
It might have something to do with the time on earth. We were told past, present and future occur at the same time but it has to reflect in linear on earth.
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
Not so for me, Lola






I don't have your exposure to so many but the accounts I've heard don't sound "staged" as you suggest.




The near-death-experience isn't the same as Astral Projection for an Out-of-Body-Experience. As I view an NDE it comes about as a consequence of severe physical trauma leaving a person's body badly injured and it's in such conditions that the consequent near-death-experience occurs. They're not something a person elects to have.



That's not my conclusion. The individual tells what's happened because it's been so dramatic although there may be some spirit orchestration of events to achieve a general or specific outcome - that's my conjecture though.




It's oft been said that humankind's inventions were inspired by spirit-side scientists and who can prove that's so or not? It's certainly interesting, even intriguing, and for many - I'm guessing - far more interesting than the totally inescapable follow on that life is eternal - we humans survive death of the body and we always have done.

I truly believe that spirit scientists inspire many inventions - even some of the music we hear today. John Lennon swore that the song "Imagine" was "in my head when I woke up" as he put it. Although some NDE's came to a traumatized experiencer, not all were the result of trauma, When I said it seemed "staged," I didn't mean that it was a lie. It's just that many seemed to play out some kind of drama for the experiencer. Almost no one "elects" to have one of these. Years ago, the majority of people didn't even know what an NDE was, but they had them anyway. I used the laptop computer example because laptops were 30 + years in the future at the time of this particular NDE, so my point was that the laptop was a future invention, so I was understandably impressed, just like the lady this happened to (unless of course there are laptop devices up there that are actually being used. Nothing surprises me any more)..

"The individual tells what's happened because it's been so dramatic although there may be some spirit orchestration of events to achieve a general or specific outcome - that's my conjecture though."
"Yes, that's what I meant by "staged." I guess orchestrated would have been a better word.
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
It might have something to do with the time on earth. We were told past, present and future occur at the same time but it has to reflect in linear on earth.
Yes, I totally agree. This lady was told (as a teenager) that she would be using one in the future, and that's what made me think it was deliberately shown to her. No one wanted to tell her that the past, present and future are simultaneous because in 1962, as a teenager, she would have been totally confused by that concept.
 

mac

Administrator
Yes, I totally agree. This lady was told (as a teenager) that she would be using one in the future, and that's what made me think it was deliberately shown to her. No one wanted to tell her that the past, present and future are simultaneous because in 1962, as a teenager, she would have been totally confused by that concept.

She may - but may not - have deliberately been shown a computer for reasons we can only guess at but it's conjecture to assign any special value to her experience. She didn't go on to be involved in their creation in our dimension and even if she'd been glimpsing some potential aspect of the future it might have had little impact on her incarnate life.

The aspect of time periods all occurring simultaneously is still esoteric and unproven even nowadays. Apart from folk like us and others interested in such issues that concept has little or no relevance in our dimension and its importance elsewhere is yet to be established.

It's all too easy to ascribe to an NDE a significance it - and other NDEs - simply may not have other than on a personal level for those experiencing them. Yet deliberately or not the outcomes can literally be life-changing - but maybe also frustrating - for the experiencers.
 
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mac

Administrator
I truly believe that spirit scientists inspire many inventions - even some of the music we hear today. John Lennon swore that the song "Imagine" was "in my head when I woke up" as he put it.

Similar inspiration, but in other fields of expression, may be occurring all the time. Similar situations may exist around great musical composers, artists or whoever. Or those individuals may have brought with them into this world creative attributes relating only to themselves. We just don't know.....


Although some NDE's came to a traumatized experiencer, not all were the result of trauma,

Near death experiences generally take place when the experiencer appears to be close-to-death. The trauma I was referring to was physical trauma due to injury and not emotional/psychological traumatisation.



When I said it seemed "staged," I didn't mean that it was a lie. It's just that many seemed to play out some kind of drama for the experiencer.

I consider that an experience when one's body appears to clinicians and specialists as 'near-death' is very much a drama. But 'staging' and 'drama' suggest entertainment. I can't speak of those you've read about but member kim was seriously injured and her life turned upside down in many ways. I don't think she would see it as some kind of drama playing out - she lived the whole event and was severely injured, the effects of the physical - and emotional - trauma still greatly affecting her life.


Almost no one "elects" to have one of these.

Of course they don't but it's implied in how you wrote your earlier piece.


Years ago, the majority of people didn't even know what an NDE was, but they had them anyway.

One could reasonably assume near-death events have always occurred but modern-day life-support and other interventions may be keeping alive far more bodies than used to be the case, hence the perceived increase in reports of NDEs happening.


I used the laptop computer example because laptops were 30 + years in the future at the time of this particular NDE, so my point was that the laptop was a future invention, so I was understandably impressed, just like the lady this happened to (unless of course there are laptop devices up there that are actually being used. Nothing surprises me any more)..

Had that woman gone on to somehow used her 'inside knowledge' to work on computer development I'd likely be persuaded her exposure to that concept was deliberately brought about. But it didn't and apart from being an eye-opener of a glimpse into what was then our future I don't ascribe any particular importance to her experience. Shows how this feet-of-clay Taurean isn't easily impressed, I guess.

"The individual tells what's happened because it's been so dramatic although there may be some spirit orchestration of events to achieve a general or specific outcome - that's my conjecture though."
"Yes, that's what I meant by "staged." I guess orchestrated would have been a better word.

Yes words can convey meanings very different from the ones intended.
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
She may - but may not - have been shown a computer but it's conjecture to assign any particular value to her experience. She didn't go on to be involved in their creation in our dimension and even if she'd been glimpsing some potential aspect of the future it might have had little impact on her incarnate life.

The aspect of time periods all occurring simultaneously is still esoteric and unproven even nowadays. Apart from folk like us and others interested in such issues that concept has little or no relevance in our dimension and its importance elsewhere is yet to be established.

It's all too easy to ascribe to an NDE a significance it - and other NDEs - simply may not have other than on a personal level to the ones experiencing them. Yet deliberately or not the outcomes can literally be life-changing - but maybe also frustrating - for the experiencers.

It could be that they aren't meant to be earth shattering, and the unknown is always frustrating. She wound up being a secretary for a cement company, and her eventual use of a laptop didn't change hers or anyone else's life, which brings me back to why I think these are "mysterious." If they have no significance, then why do they happen?

I don't buy the theory of "no time" existing there, as everything anyone does involves time - even the slightest little movement involves time, so I think that time must exist there, but in a different way than it does here. Otherwise, spirits would exist like zombies, but the evidence suggests this isn't the case. I wonder if Mikey can shed any light on NDE's. It might be worth while to ask him.
 

mac

Administrator
It could be that they aren't meant to be earth shattering, and the unknown is always frustrating.

I didn't say "earth shattering" - I said "life changing". ;) very different ;)

I don't agree the unknown is "always frustrating". Sometimes it can be but there are many aspects unknown to me where my ignorance doesn't frustrate me. The frustration at least one experiencer finds is evident in what she's written about her experiences. It's those experiences I was alluding to.


She wound up being a secretary for a cement company, and her eventual use of a laptop didn't change hers or anyone else's life, which brings me back to why I think these are "mysterious." If they have no significance, then why do they happen?

The significance for many or most is in their experiencing in ways few of us ever will something that affects many very deeply. It goes deep into their soul one might say. It happens because their very souls appear to be at risk of leaving their bodies when the time had not been planned or chosen. It usually appears to happen when physical injuries are so severe that the death of the body is a very real possibility and the separation of body and soul that occurs naturally on death is in train. As such injuries are unlikely to have been orchestrated their happening has no intended spiritual significance albeit the actual outcome often does.

I don't buy the theory of "no time" existing there, as everything anyone does involves time - even the slightest little movement involves time, so I think that time must exist there, but in a different way than it does here. Otherwise, spirits would exist like zombies, but the evidence suggests this isn't the case. I wonder if Mikey can shed any light on NDE's. It might be worth while to ask him.

The conundrum of time vs. no-time is tricky because we're living in one dimension where we're governed by our earth's time and as such it has major significance. But after death we will re-enter a dimension where it has no practical impact and where it will begin to have less and less overall significance for us. Eventually it will have none but it could be 'a long time' before that happens - hah!:D.

If you do want to ask Mikey your question then the Q&A thread is the place to do it.
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
I 'know. I was referring to physical injury. In other words, some experiencers were just victims of one of many run of the mill illnesses and were not victims of accidents or violent attacks. As far as drama and staging are concerned, I didn't mean entertainment at all. These NDE's are a million miles away from being "entertaining." In fact, because we don't know what we are dealing with, some of these NDE's have been construed by some people as being scary. They don't always have Alice in Wonderland type scenarios. This woman's NDE certainly didn't change the world - far from it. I don't think it's particularly important - just interesting because she saw something that was decades away from being invented. It's hard for us to grasp that because now laptops are as common as ants in a field, but not back in 1962.
 

mac

Administrator
I 'know. I was referring to physical injury.

You may know what you meant but it's not what you'd said.....

In other words, some experiencers were just victims of one of many run of the mill illnesses and were not victims of accidents or violent attacks.

I didn't ever refer to violent attacks anyway. But it matters little whether they were laid low by run-of-the-mill illnesses, car crashes or other incidents that caused severe injury. All of them - one must assume - were in medical conditions suggesting their bodies were close to death - even though death didn't ultimately ensue.

As far as drama and staging are concerned, I didn't mean entertainment at all. These NDE's are a million miles away from being "entertaining." In fact, because we don't know what we are dealing with, some of these NDE's have been construed by some people as being scary.

You used those two words, Lola - drama and staged - and not me. I chose very different ones to get over what I meant. I don't doubt some NDErs were scared by what happened. Of course they didn't know what they were dealing with but you'll know better than I the ratio of those scared to those whose lives and outlooks were changed positively.


They don't always have Alice in Wonderland type scenarios. This woman's NDE certainly didn't change the world - far from it. I don't think it's particularly important - just interesting because she saw something that was decades away from being invented. It's hard for us to grasp that because now laptops are as common as ants in a field, but not back in 1962.

You've lost me - I have no idea what further point you're making.
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
OK. I'm going go ask Mikey. I'm surprised someone hasn't done this already. By the way, I totally agree with you that the concept of time will likely have less and less significance as we progress onward. I have also heard that our interest in what happens on the earth plane will gradually wane until it literally becomes non-existent.
 

mac

Administrator
OK. I'm going go ask Mikey. I'm surprised someone hasn't done this already. By the way, I totally agree with you that the concept of time will likely have less and less significance as we progress onward. I have also heard that our interest in what happens on the earth plane will gradually wane until it literally becomes non-existent.

I can't remember if anyone has asked Mikey about NDEs but it's possible.

I agree that earth life interest is likely to wane as we get further away in time and further away by virtual of our spiritual progress. I've wondered - and might have raised for discussion - the question of whether some-perhaps-many discarnates don't return to signal their survival because they've quickly lost interest in remaining close to earth's unattractive, physical dimension. I've often wondered if the aspects that I'd like to understand now will be of any interest after I've kicked off my clogs for the last time here.

Add to that the changed and enhanced perception we'll have after we pass, along with re-connecting with the purpose of our lives and those of our family and friends, and we may conclude we don't want to keep trying to reach out across the veil.
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
I can't remember if anyone has asked Mikey about NDEs but it's possible.

I agree that earth life interest is likely to wane as we get further away in time and further away by virtual of our spiritual progress. I've wondered - and might have raised for discussion - the question of whether some-perhaps-many discarnates don't return to signal their survival because they've quickly lost interest in remaining close to earth's unattractive, physical dimension. I've often wondered if the aspects that I'd like to understand now will be of any interest after I've kicked off my clogs for the last time here.

Add to that the changed and enhanced perception we'll have after we pass, along with re-connecting with the purpose of our lives and those of our family and friends, and we may conclude we don't want to keep trying to reach out across the veil.

You got it, Mac. This couldn't have been said more perfectly. To go even further, I have heard that not only do they lose interest, but many virtually forget much of their earth life due to what they feel is its insignificance. It's kind of creepy because I'm starting to feel that way now and I haven't even gone anywhere yet!
 

mac

Administrator
You got it, Mac. This couldn't have been said more perfectly. To go even further, I have heard that not only do they lose interest, but many virtually forget much of their earth life due to what they feel is its insignificance. It's kind of creepy because I'm starting to feel that way now and I haven't even gone anywhere yet!

I've felt that way for quite some time, Lola. ;):D

But at the same time I know I'm here for a purpose and my earth character is one that's analytical and scientific so just maybe just a bit of that will get carried over so I retain a little interest in what's happening in this world and to the people I care about. Right now I care a great deal about the environment and our global climate changing and what that will mean for the generations after I leave. Whether I'll care when I'm dead remains to be seen! ;):D
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
My dad was also analytical and scientific and would have thought all of this was fanciful and for people who were not too intelligent to dabble in. He died in Florida when I was 22, and a medium in 2012 who I didn't know (and she certainly didn't know my dad) told me he was there standing by a boat (boats were a big deal to him), and was saying that he loved working with the "energies" in the spirit world, as they were so different from what he was used to on earth. She went on to say that he had a degree in physics (he did), and that he never would have believed in "this stuff" when he was alive. There is no way she could make such lucky guesses, and my heart was racing all the way home. However, at age 22, I didn't know what she meant about working with the energies there, but I do now. The point is that he kept the same interests but shifted them to the spirit world, which he apparently found fascinating. Maybe you will do something similar, but after a while, I think just about everyone will kind of lose any big interest in anything going on here unless they are called upon to do so.
 

mac

Administrator
My dad was also analytical and scientific and would have thought all of this was fanciful and for people who were not too intelligent to dabble in. He died in Florida when I was 22, and a medium in 2012 who I didn't know (and she certainly didn't know my dad) told me he was there standing by a boat (boats were a big deal to him), and was saying that he loved working with the "energies" in the spirit world, as they were so different from what he was used to on earth. She went on to say that he had a degree in physics (he did), and that he never would have believed in "this stuff" when he was alive. There is no way she could make such lucky guesses, and my heart was racing all the way home. However, at age 22, I didn't know what she meant about working with the energies there, but I do now. The point is that he kept the same interests but shifted them to the spirit world, which he apparently found fascinating. Maybe you will do something similar, but after a while, I think just about everyone will kind of lose any big interest in anything going on here unless they are called upon to do so.

thanks for that, Lola - Maybe I will indeed retain my interest after I pass but equally maybe it's an interest I brought back with me from before my present incarnation. Maybe this is who I used to be 'before'. ;)

The story about your dad and the visit to a medium is an interesting one. :) You were so young when you heard about all this energies stuff and I can appreciate your not being able to understand any of it - neither would I at that age or indeed for another decade and a half when life took an altogether unexpectedly different direction. When I was about your age I found about transfiguration and although it was interesting at that tender age (I still had hair!) it didn't have any relevance to our lives. How things were later to change!
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
That was a typo. I was in my 50's when I saw the medium. My dad died when I was 22, and I was so excited when I was writing about the medium that I mistakenly wrote the number 22 because that was the age I was when my father died. I will never forget that as long as I live, as to me, it was true evidential mediumship.

I truly believe that you could have brought your scientific and analytical personality over to your present incarnation, as I think that happens very often. I once had a friend who was a pianist, and a very good one. She told me that when she was a little girl, she told her mother that she would be a "piano player" when she grew up (she was 0nly 4 at the time, thus the term "piano player" instead of pianist). What kid tells her mother that they will be a piano player when no one ever mentioned this to her.? I also feel that gay people were once the opposite sex and that this kind of followed them to this incarnation even though they are now a different gender.

I still find transfiguration baffling. The only thing I can think of is that it reflects our state of mind in some way. In other words, if we are love based, we are full of light and appear glorious. What is your understanding of this? It is usually associated with highly evolved spirits, but can also be just the opposite and spirits can look distorted and ugly, if they are at a very low frequency and don't desire help to move higher i.e. if they are hateful and were violent during their earth lives and show no desire to change = in other words, if their vibrations are very low.
 

mac

Administrator
That was a typo. I was in my 50's when I saw the medium. My dad died when I was 22, and I was so excited when I was writing about the medium that I mistakenly wrote the number 22 because that was the age I was when my father died. I will never forget that as long as I live, as to me, it was true evidential mediumship.

I truly believe that you could have brought your scientific and analytical personality over to your present incarnation, as I think that happens very often. I once had a friend who was a pianist, and a very good one. She told me that when she was a little girl, she told her mother that she would be a "piano player" when she grew up (she was 0nly 4 at the time, thus the term "piano player" instead of pianist). What kid tells her mother that they will be a piano player when no one ever mentioned this to her.? I also feel that gay people were once the opposite sex and that this kind of followed them to this incarnation even though they are now a different gender.

I still find transfiguration baffling. The only thing I can think of is that it reflects our state of mind in some way. In other words, if we are love based, we are full of light and appear glorious. What is your understanding of this? It is usually associated with highly evolved spirits, but can also be just the opposite and spirits can look distorted and ugly, if they are at a very low frequency and don't desire help to move higher i.e. if they are hateful and were violent during their earth lives and show no desire to change = in other words, if their vibrations are very low.

Thanks for explaining and for your thoughts about me. Clearly your contact 'with the spooks' goes back a long way, far longer than mine.

The transfiguration I witnessed was by an old, small woman called Queenie Nixon. I didn't know how unusual transfiguration mediumship was even 50 years ago. Now it's even more uncommon. What I saw were 'masks' forming over this tiny woman's face as spirit visitors came to show their survival and presence for their loved ones in the congregation. It was the most beautiful evidential mediumship, the kind you'd expect to find in the Spiritualist church it took place in, the one in my UK hometown. There were no ugly characters as best I can recall and none would be expected.

Is this what you know by the term 'transfiguration' or is it something different?
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
Oh definitely. Most of the people this happened to were from the UK, and mediums who are capable of this are quite rare, but their faces would transform and people would recognize them as being dead relatives or friends. Even their eyes would appear to change size and color. I can't even speculate how this could happen, and I haven't heard about this in a long time. What I was actually referring to, though, was the fact that spirits of a high vibration appear like they are full of light, while those of a very low vibration, appear distorted and very unattractive. I assumed that it was because their thoughts determined their appearance. (This was mentioned in many afterlife books such as "Life in the World Unseen" by Anthony Borgia.) It makes sense to me, as thoughts are so influential over there that they would definitely have an effect on the appearance of a spirit. Two famous out of body travelers (Cyrus Kirkpatrick and Jurgen Ziewe, a German artist) have seen this and came to the same conclusion - that the inner thoughts of these damaged souls have caused a major distortion of their appearance. Don't worry, though, this will never happen to you, as you are not a candidate for this. These are spirits who live in much lower realms due to extreme selfishness and violent thoughts. Nobody changes just because they died
 

mac

Administrator
Oh definitely. Most of the people this happened to were from the UK, and mediums who are capable of this are quite rare, but their faces would transform and people would recognize them as being dead relatives or friends. Even their eyes would appear to change size and color. I can't even speculate how this could happen, and I haven't heard about this in a long time. What I was actually referring to, though, was the fact that spirits of a high vibration appear like they are full of light, while those of a very low vibration, appear distorted and very unattractive. I assumed that it was because their thoughts determined their appearance. (This was mentioned in many afterlife books such as "Life in the World Unseen" by Anthony Borgia.) It makes sense to me, as thoughts are so influential over there that they would definitely have an effect on the appearance of a spirit. Two famous out of body travelers (Cyrus Kirkpatrick and Jurgen Ziewe, a German artist) have seen this and came to the same conclusion - that the inner thoughts of these damaged souls have caused a major distortion of their appearance. Don't worry, though, this will never happen to you, as you are not a candidate for this. These are spirits who live in much lower realms due to extreme selfishness and violent thoughts. Nobody changes just because they died

I see what you were thinking of but that's not anything to do with transfiguration as in evidential mediumship, the only connection I know of.

I do know of the the two guys you've mentioned but haven't read their accounts. As with NDRers I don't know exactly where their out-of-body-experiences occur/occurred. Not in the dimensions where 'dead' people are found, I expect, but in some kind of facsimile where certain incarnates can briefly venture.

Where that is, what that is, I have no idea but it's not the exact same dimension 'the dead' are in. Roberta has written about this far more knowledgeably and eloquently than I can.

The souls whose sad lives lead to their spending some of their afterlife in miserable, dark, gloomy dimensions are not something I dwell on. But I've encountered them and don't care for their company. I don't expect to encounter any again in this incarnation and I don't expect I'll be joining 'em when I pass over either. ;)

I've heard accounts about their appearance and how their miserable lives distort their appearance until they make the change and allow themselves to be rescued.
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
I see what you were thinking of but that's not anything to do with transfiguration as in evidential mediumship, the only connection I know of.

I do know of the the two guys you've mentioned but haven't read their accounts. As with NDRers I don't know exactly where their out-of-body-experiences occur/occurred. Not in the dimensions where 'dead' people are found, I expect, but in some kind of facsimile where certain incarnates can briefly venture.

Where that is, what that is, I have no idea but it's not the exact same dimension 'the dead' are in. Roberta has written about this far more knowledgeably and eloquently than I can.

The souls whose sad lives lead to their spending some of their afterlife in miserable, dark, gloomy dimensions are not something I dwell on. But I've encountered them and don't care for their company. I don't expect to encounter any again in this incarnation and I don't expect I'll be joining 'em when I pass over either. ;)

I've heard accounts about their appearance and how their miserable lives distort their appearance until they make the change and allow themselves to be rescued.

You should read their accounts. They are fascinating. They are traversing the astral realms where thoughts create the spirits' reality. Both of them actually met spirits there, as these realms contain countless numbers of spirits who still focus on lives they lived on earth and they are the ones I wanted to pray for. Incidentally, Carole answered me when I asked if they could be prayed for in a meaningful way, and she said that Mikey said it was not only possible, but would be most welcome because prayer and well wishes were very important. Many of them had addictions and criminal histories while they lived on earth. I don't judge them because who knows what kind of horrible childhoods and setbacks they experienced while they were alive. We have no way of knowing if mental illness was a problem for some of them in addition to a dysfunctional home life. You definitely will not be on their plane of existence, but there are so many different planes there (or states of consciousness) that to say they are not where the dead are is not a true statement. They are souls who have died, but they are not where the spiritualists call "summerland" because they are what we in America call "earthbound spirits" due to their lack of awareness and desire to move higher. For some of them, it will take eons to change their way of thinking as no one is forced to believe anything specific and help is available, but only for those who are willing to accept it. As bad as this might sound, there are even lower realms that are like self made hells which scare the daylights out of me. These people never had a clue how important their thoughts were while they were here on earth.
 

mac

Administrator
You should read their accounts. They are fascinating. They are traversing the astral realms where thoughts create the spirits' reality.

Thank you for your thoughtful and stimulating points, Lola. Perhaps I should read some accounts but you've summarised for me the important details and I thank you for that.


Both of them actually met spirits there, as these realms contain countless numbers of spirits who still focus on lives they lived on earth and they are the ones I wanted to pray for. Incidentally, Carole answered me when I asked if they could be prayed for in a meaningful way, and she said that Mikey said it was not only possible, but would be most welcome because prayer and well wishes were very important.

I think you're exceptionally considerate and loving towards these lost individuals. I've heard what Mikey has said about your prayers for them but I'm still to feel persuaded that such prayer can make much practical difference to their plight. I may have much to learn but you are already there. :)


Many of them had addictions and criminal histories while they lived on earth. I don't judge them because who knows what kind of horrible childhoods and setbacks they experienced while they were alive. We have no way of knowing if mental illness was a problem for some of them in addition to a dysfunctional home life.

I expect many will have had no moral compass as incarnates. Others may have ignored their own and preferred lives outside of the values of ordinary, regular people. Yet others will have had their lives blighted by mental illnesses. I try to see them in the way you do, Lola, and I try not to judge - "There but for the grace of God......" But I have no way to reach out to those uncountable numbers either. I've a long way to go. :(



You definitely will not be on their plane of existence, but there are so many different planes there (or states of consciousness) that to say they are not where the dead are is not a true statement.

You're exactly right on all scores, Lola. I was unjustifiably loose in referring to 'the dead' the way I did. It was shorthand for the regular folk we think of when we say 'dead' and I should know better because I pull others up about loose language. mea culpa :oops:


They are souls who have died, but they are not where the spiritualists call "summerland" because they are what we in America call "earthbound spirits" due to their lack of awareness and desire to move higher. For some of them, it will take eons to change their way of thinking as no one is forced to believe anything specific and help is available, but only for those who are willing to accept it. As bad as this might sound, there are even lower realms that are like self made hells which scare the daylights out of me. These people never had a clue how important their thoughts were while they were here on earth.

Beautifully summarised. :) Yes the denizens of these 'lower levels' have indeed died and moved on from this earth's physical dimension but have yet to complete the transition into the so-called summerland, the etheric level we regular folk expect to be in after we pass over. You're absolutely right that for some it will be a choice they make but for others it will be a lack of awareness. And yes you're right again that for some a long period will pass before they emerge from the shadows of those worlds.

I agree that self-made hells must be terrifying places. Trying to understand the difficulties of the lives of those there is beyond me. I can appreciate, though, how hard it has to be for them even to recognise what's happening and the extreme difficulty of then acknowledging/recognising they need outside help to escape. And those stages have to be reached before those waiting to help can offer that help. It's an awful situation.
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
Thank you for your thoughtful and stimulating points, Lola. Perhaps I should read some accounts but you've summarised for me the important details and I thank you for that.




I think you're exceptionally considerate and loving towards these lost individuals. I've heard what Mikey has said about your prayers for them but I'm still to feel persuaded that such prayer can make much practical difference to their plight. I may have much to learn but you are already there. :)




I expect many will have had no moral compass as incarnates. Others may have ignored their own and preferred lives outside of the values of ordinary, regular people. Yet others will have had their lives blighted by mental illnesses. I try to see them in the way you do, Lola, and I try not to judge - "There but for the grace of God......" But I have no way to reach out to those uncountable numbers either. I've a long way to go. :(





You're exactly right on all scores, Lola. I was unjustifiably loose in referring to 'the dead' the way I did. It was shorthand for the regular folk we think of when we say 'dead' and I should know better because I pull others up about loose language. mea culpa :oops:




Beautifully summarised. :) Yes the denizens of these 'lower levels' have indeed died and moved on from this earth's physical dimension but have yet to complete the transition into the so-called summerland, the etheric level we regular folk expect to be in after we pass over. You're absolutely right that for some it will be a choice they make but for others it will be a lack of awareness. And yes you're right again that for some a long period will pass before they emerge from the shadows of those worlds.

I agree that self-made hells must be terrifying places. Trying to understand the difficulties of the lives of those there is beyond me. I can appreciate, though, how hard it has to be for them even to recognise what's happening and the extreme difficulty of then acknowledging/recognising they need outside help to escape. And those stages have to be reached before those waiting to help can offer that help. It's an awful situation.

Many are afraid of judgment now that they know they are not annihilated when they die. Others have a lot of hate and rage and have to let go of that - definitely not an easy task. I agree with what you said a while back in that prayers which are non-specific (like praying for the world to heal) would not be effective, so I only do it for those whose names I know, where they lived, and in some cases, who their victims were in order to make it as specific as I can. This is what happens when you retire and have time on your hands LOL. If anyone told me I would be doing this ten years ago, I would have thought they were crazy. You're the only one that knows this, as I realize it sounds way "out there."
 

mac

Administrator
Many are afraid of judgment now that they know they are not annihilated when they die. Others have a lot of hate and rage and have to let go of that - definitely not an easy task. I agree with what you said a while back in that prayers which are non-specific (like praying for the world to heal) would not be effective, so I only do it for those whose names I know, where they lived, and in some cases, who their victims were in order to make it as specific as I can. This is what happens when you retire and have time on your hands LOL. If anyone told me I would be doing this ten years ago, I would have thought they were crazy. You're the only one that knows this, as I realize it sounds way "out there."
I totally agree with the principle of targeted prayer. It's done for the purest of motives in the examples you've given.

As for those in the so-called outer darkness, the so-called earthbounds, I think we must just trust that elevated spirits are trying their hardest to take care of them. I've only encountered them via a friend on one occasion and I don't want to repeat the experience. The spirits who choose to deal with such negative individuals should be acknowledged for their persistence and dedication.
 

mac

Administrator
I agree with what you said a while back in that prayers which are non-specific (like praying for the world to heal) would not be effective, so I only do it for those whose names I know, where they lived, and in some cases, who their victims were in order to make it as specific as I can. This is what happens when you retire and have time on your hands LOL. If anyone told me I would be doing this ten years ago, I would have thought they were crazy. You're the only one that knows this, as I realize it sounds way "out there."

It's nice to be among like-minded individuals. We may disagree over certain aspects and that's exactly as it should be but fundamentally this is a safe place in which to express one's approach to the various, related issues surrounding life, death and what follows. You're among friends here on ALF. :)
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
It's nice to be among like-minded individuals. We may disagree over certain aspects and that's exactly as it should be but fundamentally this is a safe place in which to express one's approach to the various, related issues surrounding life, death and what follows. You're among friends here on ALF. :)

I agree. Thanks, Mac. I just finished watching "The Scole Experiments" conducted in the small city of Scole, England some years ago. Probably the most fascinating video I've ever seen.
 

mac

Administrator
I agree. Thanks, Mac. I just finished watching "The Scole Experiments" conducted in the small city of Scole, England some years ago. Probably the most fascinating video I've ever seen.
Robin Foy's home in the village of Scole, Norfolk, England, UK was a converted mill house with a room downstairs that could totally be blacked out - no light from anywhere.

In a quiet part of the country the 'Scole Hole' was a pleasantly quiet (but very warm) room large enough for visitors when fund-raising sessions were held. It was an interesting place with interesting phenomena, somewhere a materialised discarnate stood in front of me and shook my hand and to whom I spoke. I couldn't see him of course but I could sense where he was!

I could also see various, tiny lights in that darkness, one of which went through a coffee table close to me making a small plop! as it did so several times. I could see it going through the table's solid wood top because of the tiny amount emitted by this light 'blob'. There were other phenomena too, things I now can't quite recall but even then, twenty odd years ago, I wasn't over-impressed by the production of phenomena for their own sake. By themselves for me they had, and still do have, little value or importance.

I'm glad you enjoyed the video. If you're into such stuff then Robin Foy's book detailing the events during the several years the Experimental Group sat together might be interesting for you. I don't know if it's available over here in the US, though, because he used to sell copies directly from his home. He's been living in Spain for some years and I don't know anything about his present-day activities but a few years back he was trying to raise funds to re-furbish an old villa as a center.
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
Robin Foy's home in the village of Scole, Norfolk, England, UK was a converted mill house with a room downstairs that could totally be blacked out - no light from anywhere.

In a quiet part of the country the 'Scole Hole' was a pleasantly quiet (but very warm) room large enough for visitors when fund-raising sessions were held. It was an interesting place with interesting phenomena, somewhere a materialised discarnate stood in front of me and shook my hand and to whom I spoke. I couldn't see him of course but I could sense where he was!

I could also see various, tiny lights in that darkness, one of which went through a coffee table close to me making a small plop! as it did so several times. I could see it going through the table's solid wood top because of the tiny amount emitted by this light 'blob'. There were other phenomena too, things I now can't quite recall but even then, twenty odd years ago, I wasn't over-impressed by the production of phenomena for their own sake. By themselves for me they had, and still do have, little value or importance.

I'm glad you enjoyed the video. If you're into such stuff then Robin Foy's book detailing the events during the several years the Experimental Group sat together might be interesting for you. I don't know if it's available over here in the US, though, because he used to sell copies directly from his home. He's been living in Spain for some years and I don't know anything about his present-day activities but a few years back he was trying to raise funds to re-furbish an old villa as a center.

I am so jealous that you actually went to the Scole Hole. I've had the book "Witnessing the Impossible" for years. and there are wonderful pictures in there, but nothing like I saw on this video. I ordered it from Robin's website, so maybe he did send it to me from his home. The reason I liked the video so much is because it centered around how often British scientists and a couple of American scientists went there to specifically debunk it, and came out of there as true believers. Many of the things you mentioned happened to others as well, and much, much more. Robin Foy was more than happy to assist them and never once became annoyed that people were there to find fault and expose him. Interestingly, it started out with a specific group of spirits, then after a while, more came as if the word got out.

When I was going to the Spiritualist church, one of the teachers said that if you go to the same place at around the same time and put your intention out that you desire communication, they will eventually come, but today, the desire for instant gratification makes that unlikely, as no one has the patience or time to keep trying, much less a group of people. The Scole group was unusually dedicated.
 

mac

Administrator
I am so jealous that you actually went to the Scole Hole. I've had the book "Witnessing the Impossible" for years. and there are wonderful pictures in there, but nothing like I saw on this video. I ordered it from Robin's website, so maybe he did send it to me from his home. The reason I liked the video so much is because it centered around how often British scientists and a couple of American scientists went there to specifically debunk it, and came out of there as true believers. Many of the things you mentioned happened to others as well, and much, much more. Robin Foy was more than happy to assist them and never once became annoyed that people were there to find fault and expose him. Interestingly, it started out with a specific group of spirits, then after a while, more came as if the word got out.

When I was going to the Spiritualist church, one of the teachers said that if you go to the same place at around the same time and put your intention out that you desire communication, they will eventually come, but today, the desire for instant gratification makes that unlikely, as no one has the patience or time to keep trying, much less a group of people. The Scole group was unusually dedicated.

I'm pleased to learn you have Robin's book. You have as complete a picture as it's possible to have so long after the events. It was an interesting time but for me ultimately not successful and one of my biggest disappointments during my time 'in the spooks'. But it's history now, the world has moved on and different approaches are now evident.

I've often posed the question why modern-day mediumship is in such a sad state. One reason commonly cited is the inability/unwillingness of individuals to sit in group often enough, long enough, for development. Sitting for physical mediumship is even less common with fewer prepared to sit regularly, potentially over many months or years. Sitting solo and hoping to make contact with our friends unseen may, or may not, be successful but even more persistence and dedication may be needed, those most likely to succeed being natural mediums, even if unwitting ones.
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
I'm pleased to learn you have Robin's book. You have as complete a picture as it's possible to have so long after the events. It was an interesting time but for me ultimately not successful and one of my biggest disappointments during my time 'in the spooks'. But it's history now, the world has moved on and different approaches are now evident.

I've often posed the question why modern-day mediumship is in such a sad state. One reason commonly cited is the inability/unwillingness of individuals to sit in group often enough, long enough, for development. Sitting for physical mediumship is even less common with fewer prepared to sit regularly, potentially over many months or years. Sitting solo and hoping to make contact with our friends unseen may, or may not, be successful but even more persistence and dedication may be needed, those most likely to succeed being natural mediums, even if unwitting ones.

No one wants to do that any more. This was far more common before the electronic age overtook us. Now, with iphones, computers and so many other devices, the concept of sitting in a circle for many weeks or months turns most people off. Some may try it for a short time just "for a lark" but wouldn't take it very seriously. I can't even find one to do it let alone a group. If only I was a natural medium, I wouldn't need the additional energy of other people.

Why were you disappointed by the Scole Hole, and did the handshake you experienced seem real? This happened to other visitors there as well. Some people were able to see the outline of an entity while others saw nothing, but they all agreed that the handshake was not imaginary. Also, those lights you described were shown in the video, and a few were seen going through a coffee table. It doesn't surprise me, as objects that appear solid to us do not appear solid to them.
 

mac

Administrator
No one wants to do that any more. This was far more common before the electronic age overtook us. Now, with iphones, computers and so many other devices, the concept of sitting in a circle for many weeks or months turns most people off. Some may try it for a short time just "for a lark" but wouldn't take it very seriously. I can't even find one to do it let alone a group. If only I was a natural medium, I wouldn't need the additional energy of other people.

Why were you disappointed by the Scole Hole, and did the handshake you experienced seem real? This happened to other visitors there as well. Some people were able to see the outline of an entity while others saw nothing, but they all agreed that the handshake was not imaginary. Also, those lights you described were shown in the video, and a few were seen going through a coffee table. It doesn't surprise me, as objects that appear solid to us do not appear solid to them.

It wasn't the Scole Hole that disappointed me. It was that the experiment didn't achieve what was promised.

The handshake felt as natural as any from an incarnate. It's all interesting stuff but physical phenomena have been around for decades and often were better done in the earlier days.

The lights were less surprising than just plain interesting. I already knew of that phenomenon because it was a common one at the time and had been described earlier in the 'Spiritual Scientist'.
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
Yes, those lights are quite common. I saw them a few different times - always at a place where there was spiritual activity. Like I said, it's a shame that things have changed, as in earlier times, before things became so money orientated, there was a lot of physical phenomena that was brought about by sitters who took the time and had some patience. I think those days are gone forever. The goal of that whole Scole thing, I feel, was to convince people of life after death. People like you and I would be much less impressed than those who were non-believers and who had zero experience, and that's why they all seemed so excited on the video. My goal now is to learn how to effectively interact with the other side, and to learn more about what sends us to different "realms," but I no longer require proof that there is an existence beyond this one
 
To learn more about NDE's and even read the research and thousands of experiences go to nderf dot org The Near Death Experience Research Foundation. They also have stats on what are the most common aspects of NDEs. Read the Exceptional experiences, many of them align to alot of channeled texts and Channels like Law of One, ACIM, Darryl Anka Channeling Bashar, Law of Attraction, Channeling Erik and many many more and even Roberta Grimes research! Many of the experiences have brought me to tears. For every NDE story, there is a questionnaire that they answer, which gives even more insight to NDEs.
 

mac

Administrator
To learn more about NDE's and even read the research and thousands of experiences go to nderf dot org The Near Death Experience Research Foundation.

That website is already included in ALF's 'Resources' section along with others.


They also have stats on what are the most common aspects of NDEs. Read the Exceptional experiences, many of them align to alot of channeled texts and Channels like Law of One, ACIM, Darryl Anka Channeling Bashar, Law of Attraction, Channeling Erik and many many more and even Roberta Grimes research! Many of the experiences have brought me to tears. For every NDE story, there is a questionnaire that they answer, which gives even more insight to NDEs.

From an ALF perspective I need to emphasise that near-death experiences are not experiences of life after the death of one's physical body. A near-death experience is simply one that sometimes comes about when a person's body appears close to death, where the individual shows none of the customary signs of life.

Some near-death experiences may be similar to some death experiences but they are not the same. It's important to remember that those reporting back on experiences haven't experienced death itself. That's strictly a one-way journey you don't get to report on from this side of the divide! There's no returning from death then sitting up in a bed and talking about it!

As I routinely remark, near-death accounts can be an invaluable way to get into the subjects of death, what precedes it and what follows it. But the importance of an NDE outside of that context should not be over-stated or over-valued.
 

kim

Significant Contributor
near-death experiences are not experiences of life after the death of one's physical body
This is one thing that I was very confused about during the NDE I experienced. I know now that I wasn't experiencing life in the after life, but during the NDE I didn't have a clue what I was experiencing. Everything had become intensely different, even odd. At the time, I thought I was experiencing the after life and I was so disappointed in what I encountered, but I finally realized I wasn't experiencing the after life, and I was so relieved to be aware that I had a "normal" earthly life to look forward to!
 

mac

Administrator
This is one thing that I was very confused about during the NDE I experienced. I know now that I wasn't experiencing life in the after life, but during the NDE I didn't have a clue what I was experiencing. Everything had become intensely different, even odd. At the time, I thought I was experiencing the after life and I was so disappointed in what I encountered, but I finally realized I wasn't experiencing the after life, and I was so relieved to be aware that I had a "normal" earthly life to look forward to!
It just goes to show the differing effects of NDEs, kim. :)

Yours wasn't totally unpleasant but it was pretty unsettling for you and not particularly enjoyable. It's understandable you thought you had experienced something similar to life-after-death and maybe some of your experiences weren't that different.

These NDEs are helpful in one particular way - they make folk realise there's something more than just their lives in the here-and-now - but they then need to be helped to understand what those lives are about and what their significance is.
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
That's a good way of looking at it. I've read of many NDE's that result in radical changes in people, and many of these people wind up totally changing their priorities.
 

mac

Administrator
That's a good way of looking at it. I've read of many NDE's that result in radical changes in people, and many of these people wind up totally changing their priorities.
It's always nice to hear about the positive aspects of NDEs. These experiences certainly do appear to be life-changing for many or most.

On a different tack though, many years ago a friend's late wife appeared to him seemingly out-of-the-blue and the effects on him were breathtaking. It wasn't an NDE, of course, but the effect on his life, on his priorities, was astounding. I witnessed what happened, was involved in other events involving him and his wife, and looked on as a spectator at how it changed him.

In time, though, he returned to being someone apparently similar to the person I'd known for years but he could never 'unlearn' what he learned from the initial experience and all that followed from it. He was a changed man.
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
I can see where that would create change. Although it happens to people, seeing an apparition is kind of rare. Maybe he has some kind of psychic abilities, as deceased people are around us quite often, but are seldom seen by people who aren't mediums. I wonder if he had dreams of her as well.
 

mac

Administrator
I can see where that would create change. Although it happens to people, seeing an apparition is kind of rare. Maybe he has some kind of psychic abilities, as deceased people are around us quite often, but are seldom seen by people who aren't mediums. I wonder if he had dreams of her as well.

Before it happened I would have said my friend and colleague didn't have an ounce of psychic ability - or even a gram given I worked in science..... I remember the day it happened to him as clearly as anything else so vivid. I'd been out on a job and arrived back to find him excited and overwhelmed. He just came out with it that his late wife had appeared to him in my office and workroom area. It was totally out of the blue, nothing ever to indicate he had any relevant attributes. You know I'm not easily impressed, Lola, so when I tell you what I have just told you it's because it was a BIG deal. It was the start of other things but that's another story and one I've written about here in the past.

He was VERY attached to his wife who tragically died after major surgery. He was devastated by her death and his life became a maelstrom of unfortunate events including a new relationship that was a disaster with his money-grabbing partner trying to empty his home while he was at work with me! It was an unforgettable and traumatic time but it led eventually to the events I've mentioned and a whole bunch of other stuff that is related.

I sometimes look back on all the events - one especially important one I haven't mentioned here but I have detailed elsewhere - and wonder how the hell all that stuff came about and why and who was orchestrating everything. Why him? Why me? Was it all serendipity or were our friends unseen pulling countless strings, puppet-masters unseen and we were dancing to their tune?

Mostly now, though, I just see those times as part of a bizarre tapestry whose shape and form I get just occasional glimpses of. Others might disbelieve what I've said if they knew and/or dismiss it all as fanciful and fantasy. I don't care because none of what happened was relevant to them. They can believe me or not but it just doesn't matter to me. ;):)

As I remarked earlier, none of this had anything to do with NDE but the outcome was similar in many ways.
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
I think his strong attachment to her was likely the reason he saw her. The phrase "love never dies" may sound a bit corny, but it has been shown to be true in many, many cases. They sense our feelings there if our feelings are intense enough, and he must have been in deep grief. She undoubtedly picked up on that, and I think that is why she appeared to him (to reassure him that she wasn't actually dead)

It sounds like her appearing to him was the beginning of a chain of events. as you said it was the start of other things. What a shame he got into that relationship. What he needed was comfort and someone he could trust, but it appears that it was just the opposite. Who knows how many "friends unseen" are orchestrating events in our lives.
 

mac

Administrator
Who knows indeed....? I had always thought she'd be close by him because of their strong love but it wasn't something I'd try to explain to someone with no apparent interest in, or knowledge of, such subjects.

My thinking later - after certain events in which I was involved with my friend - was that our various relationships (I also knew her well) and my growing involvement and understanding of spiritual issues were used to bring about the eventual rescue of the small child, something that happened some weeks later.

On the other hand all the events might just have been fortuitous and serendipitous.
 
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kim

Significant Contributor
What were you experiencing Kim? Many NDE's are beautiful - conversations with dead loved ones, beings like angels etc.
I don't have adequate words to explain what I went through, but I am thankful for it now. I wouldn't trade the experience for $1,000,000!
 

Lola Hoovler

Active Member
Who knows indeed....?
Once people become aware of the possibility of spirits being involved in our lives, though, it might be easier to pick up on who might be around us. There are very few people who even think that's possible. They are too focused on their daily routines and their computers, iphones, etc. Knowing there are unseen spirits around can explain many coincidences that people often experience.
 

mac

Administrator
Once people become aware of the possibility of spirits being involved in our lives, though, it might be easier to pick up on who might be around us. There are very few people who even think that's possible. They are too focused on their daily routines and their computers, iphones, etc. Knowing there are unseen spirits around can explain many coincidences that people often experience.

I think those engaged in getting on with their lives might retort they're not too focused at all..... ;)

It's my experience that individuals become interested in 'the spooks stuff' when it's the right time for them individually and preaching to them about our friends unseen is unlikely to have any appeal until our worldly friends have the need. And that's the time when we may help most effectively. :) It may also be the time they are more likely to pick up on discarnates hoping to make contact with them.
 
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Lola Hoovler

Active Member
Of course. I never even mention it to anyone that I know has no interest, as it would be a waste of time. At least more people are open to this than ever before, and I find more and more of them in book stores than when I first started to read "spooky books" at which time there was only one or two in the metaphysical section.
 

kim

Significant Contributor
What is the difference of a Near Death Experience and an Out of Body Experience?
 

mac

Administrator
What is the difference of a Near Death Experience and an Out of Body Experience?

The former comes about as an outcome of an apparently life-threatening event - an injury like your own for example. The latter may also happen for a similar reason BUT it may also happen for different reasons.
 
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