PM...Favorite Form Of Mediumship

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RobertaGrimes

Administrator
Staff member
I'd go one stage beyond to suggest that the expression of love for another doesn't require thinking it. From what we've heard from 'over there' such emotions ought, I suggest, to be communicated automatically, naturally, without there being any need to think them.

After all, the very mechanism of thinking them is a conscious action and unconditional love would appear to require no conscious effort such as with the love we feel for our children - it just happens. Or, controversially perhaps, maybe we're 'hard-wired' to experience that love?

Apparently communication requires thinking - we send a bolus of thought from mind to mind - but what seems to be the case is that we feel other people's emotions. I'm not sure about that - I don't think anyone is - but it certainly seems lovely!
 

mac

Administrator
Apparently communication requires thinking - we send a bolus of thought from mind to mind - but what seems to be the case is that we feel other people's emotions. I'm not sure about that - I don't think anyone is - but it certainly seems lovely!
Yes I agree that thinking precedes our communicating in the etheric - that's kinda where we came in several postings back discussing the mechanism of verbal compared to non-verbal communication. ;)

I can't think how the situation was explained (probably by Silver Birch) concerning love/emotions save to say that our emotions apparently can be 'read' by other discarnates, we seemingly appearing 'transparent' (in that regard) compared with the way our physical overcoat conceals many of our emotions.
 
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STEVEN LEVEE

Occasional Contributor
Not sure if this is discussed on this forum at all as I don't see it, but...This is what interested me when I first started exploring...this was the clearest picture I've seen of full form marterialization. Of course it just looks like a real girl coming through some curtains. The Physical Medium (friend of mine) when asked how she knew this was truly an FFM, said: "Because my spirit guide told me it was." Again, I got to know this woman so I believer her...I wouldn't expect any body else to, but...Here it is:

A rare photo of a Spirit Guide or Control : 'Kitty' is one of American medium J B Jonson's guides and materialised at this seance in California in the presence of H T Yaryan - Date: 1902

spiritguidematerialise.jpg
 

mac

Administrator
Physical mediumship as witnessed in the past just doesn't seem to happen nowadays. But there again mediumship doesn't seem as commonplace either - unless it's just me who's not aware of it?
 

bluebird

Major Contributor
mac,

Does "physical mediumship" as you've used it here mean the supposed materialization of spirits, as is purported in the photo in Steven's post? If so, my opinion is that it doesn't happen much anymore because it's a lot more difficult to pull scams of that sort now. I'm not saying there's no afterlife, or even that no example of materialization is legit, but I do think that most of the supposed materializations from seances and the like that took place in the past were scams.
 

mac

Administrator
mac,

Does "physical mediumship" as you've used it here mean the supposed materialization of spirits, as is purported in the photo in Steven's post?

Yes it covers materialisations as in this photo but also many other phenomena.


If so, my opinion is that it doesn't happen much anymore because it's a lot more difficult to pull scams of that sort now. I'm not saying there's no afterlife, or even that no example of materialization is legit, but I do think that most of the supposed materializations from seances and the like that took place in the past were scams.

There's absolutely no doubt that scams have occurred but it would need a study of available data to reach a balanced conclusion. Otherwise it's conjecture to suggest "most of the supposed materializations from seances and the like that took place in the past were scams.".

However scams have happened right up to recent years and are very likely still happening as I write. I don't know the last assertion as fact because demonstrations are often held in private with little outside scrutiny. We get to know about them after the event when disgruntled attendees declare their concerns. One performer in particular was filmed a couple of years ago faking phenomena, a practitioner who had been suspected of fraud for some time. The filming left no doubt and the individual was discredited yet from what I've heard he continues to give performances.

I don't want this to sound critical but it's not really possible for someone unpersuaded of survival to objectively assess the situation concerning mediumship and phenomenalism.
 

mac

Administrator
On general note I've long held concerns that those with a particular interest in physical mediumship may actually be more interested in the production and witnessing of phenomena than they are in the notion of survival beyond death those phenomena evidence.

I expressed that same concern well over a couple of decades ago in a published letter that brought a strong rebuke. That came from the leader of the Noah's Ark Society, an organisation representing and supporting physical mediums.

Incidentally in subsequent years he and I became friends, perhaps when he realised I hadn't actually been knocking physical mediumship. ;)
 

bluebird

Major Contributor
Yes it covers materialisations as in this photo but also many other phenomena.




There's absolutely no doubt that scams have occurred but it would need a study of available data to reach a balanced conclusion. Otherwise it's conjecture to suggest "most of the supposed materializations from seances and the like that took place in the past were scams.".

However scams have happened right up to recent years and are very likely still happening as I write. I don't know the last assertion as fact because demonstrations are often held in private with little outside scrutiny. We get to know about them after the event when disgruntled attendees declare their concerns. One performer in particular was filmed a couple of years ago faking phenomena, a practitioner who had been suspected of fraud for some time. The filming left no doubt and the individual was discredited yet from what I've heard he continues to give performances.

I don't want this to sound critical but it's not really possible for someone unpersuaded of survival to objectively assess the situation concerning mediumship and phenomenalism.

You make fair points. However -- the reason I think most of the supposed materializations in the past were probably scams is that many of them were supposedly of full-body apparitions, looking just like real people, who both appeared and then later disappeared under the guise of darkness. Ditto for the appearance of "ectoplasm", much of which was (in my opinion) simply muslin or another fabric. The girl in the photo looks just like a regular, living girl -- she even appears to be casting a shadow behind her, which an apparition/spirit would not do, and her elbows are pushing aside the curtains, which would require actual elbows. She is also appearing from within a curtained recess or cabinet, in the back of which it would be very easy to install a hidden door.

I also think that if they weren't mostly scams, we would be seeing many more full-body apparitions at seances and so forth these days, but we don't because it's easier to catch out the scammers, partly because people are less likely to fall for the scams, partly because we are less polite when it comes to not questioning people, and partly because modern day technology and an understanding of how it functions helps to eliminate some of the scams.

Even if I were persuaded of the existence of an afterlife, that doesn't mean I would be persuaded that these sorts of materializations were all legitimate. For many years prior to my husband's death I was agnostic, but more inclined to hope and believe than I am now, and I wasn't persuaded about the materializations then. If there is an afterlife, then I think there probably are legitimate seances, materalizations, communications, etc., but I don't believe that they are all legit, especially the more spectacular ones like that photo.

All of which is just my opinion, of course.
 

mac

Administrator
You make fair points. However -- the reason I think most of the supposed materializations in the past were probably scams is that many of them were supposedly of full-body apparitions, looking just like real people, who both appeared and then later disappeared under the guise of darkness.

I don't want to sound rude but how much research have you carried out into this? This appears to be supposition, bb.....


Ditto for the appearance of "ectoplasm", much of which was (in my opinion) simply muslin or another fabric.

ditto the above - Again it's supposition and belief because you've heard/read certain stories which may indeed have involved frauds. But how much have you researched the phenomena that were widely accepted as authentic by experienced researchers?

The girl in the photo looks just like a regular, living girl -- she even appears to be casting a shadow behind her, which an apparition/spirit would not do, and her elbows are pushing aside the curtains, which would require actual elbows. She is also appearing from within a curtained recess or cabinet, in the back of which it would be very easy to install a hidden door.

That's a single case, bb, and you may be right but even if you are right it's just one case. It doesn't automatically mean all the others are too.

I also think that if they weren't mostly scams, we would be seeing many more full-body apparitions at seances and so forth these days, but we don't because it's easier to catch out the scammers, partly because people are less likely to fall for the scams, partly because we are less polite when it comes to not questioning people, and partly because modern day technology and an understanding of how it functions helps to eliminate some of the scams.

Again it's your belief without any understanding of mediumship. I'm not here to defend frauds and charlatans but you've thrown the baby out with the bathwater because you're not basing your ideas on research data.

Even if I were persuaded of the existence of an afterlife, that doesn't mean I would be persuaded that these sorts of materializations were all legitimate.

Again I don't want to be rude, bb, but you're always going to be hampered by your stance concerning survival. But please don't misrepresent the situation - I certainly haven't suggested all of those apparent materialisations were authentic. Without a broader understanding, or at least an acceptance, of survival, mediumship/channeling et al how are you able to judge a situation as uncommon as physical mediumship and phenomena? Physical mediumship has always been less common, often carried out in small circles and groups and not necessarily much known about. I know that from my NAS days.

For many years prior to my husband's death I was agnostic, but more inclined to hope and believe than I am now, and I wasn't persuaded about the materializations then.

But it was a subject you hadn't studied and researched and you knew little of mediumship to boot. How could you expect to reach a balanced conclusion on a subject unusual even within my own speciality?

If there is an afterlife, then I think there probably are legitimate seances, materalizations, communications, etc.,
If there weren't an afterlife, if survival isn't factual then ALL seances would have to be fakery. There could be no legitimate seances, no authentic communication, no spiritually-based phenomena. There couldn't be any such thing as mediumship, only psychism.


....but I don't believe that they are all legit, especially the more spectacular ones like that photo.

All of which is just my opinion, of course.

And we're back to my earlier points....

Not all physical phenomena are kosher - frauds and fakers do exist of course, just as they exist in every walk of life where's there's a buck to be made from a sucker or where someone just delights in making fools of others. But unless and until an individual is persuaded about the reality of survival et al then everything associated with 'matters-spiritual' (as I call 'em) is an unknown subject until that individual has done enough research; research may then help change someone's mind.

Physical mediumship and physical phenomena attract some, perhaps many, more interested in getting a thrill than learning about survival and communication. Even some of those who are persuaded about survival may seek such excitement! Any of them may be too readily taken in but those with little knowledge have a lesser chance of telling genuine from fake. It's what frauds and charlatans rely on and why knowledgeable individuals have been excluded from the demonstrations by certain phenomenalists.
 

bluebird

Major Contributor
To some extent you're right -- my views on this are based on what I've read and researched, but that covers both stuff that was accepted as authentic by researchers, and stuff that wasn't. I've read a lot about these things (in the past, not recently), but my reading was wide-ranging rather than discriminating. So yes, what I've said is largely my opinion, but I never said otherwise.

As far as the photo in this thread, you're correct that even if I'm right about that instance being fraudulent, that doesn't mean all others are as well, but I'm not saying that all others are; I do think that many with similar photos are, though (those in which physical things, like the shadow and elbows in this one, can be pointed to).

My stance concerning survival is not one of disbelief; rather, it is one of agnosticism, of not knowing. I am certainly open to the possibility of an afterlife; as you know, I fervently hope an afterlife does exist. I would be ecstatic to have the existence of a (loving, kind, pleasant, etc.) afterlife (in which we will be reunited with our dead loved ones) proven to me.

I know you haven't suggested that all of the apparent materialisations were authentic; I know you are discerning when it comes to these things. I apologize if I came across as suggesting that you did believe all of the materialisations were authentic -- I certainly did not mean to.

You said "If there weren't an afterlife, if survival isn't factual then ALL seances would have to be fakery. There could be no legitimate seances, no authentic communication, no spiritually-based phenomena. There couldn't be any such thing as mediumship, only psychism." You are correct -- if there is no afterlife, then all seances, communications, etc., are fake. I don't know if that's the case or not. I hope it isn't.

I'm really not trying to argue with you about whether all mediumship is legit, or about who is and who isn't. I was just responding to your post in which you said that "physical mediumship as witnessed in the past just doesn't seem to happen nowadays", and was offering what I see as at least part of the reason why that may be the case.
 

mac

Administrator
Fair comment, bb. You did say it was your opinion and since you've researched extensively I acknowledge it's an opinion you've developed based on what you found.

I do know you don't disbelieve the notion of survival. You say you're agnostic but for me that's not what I sense. Dictionary definitions of agnosticism describe the condition as not knowing whether there's a God or some kind of supreme being/entity etc. In connection with survival I prefer to say 'persuaded'. It seems to me one is either persuaded or not persuaded by personal experience (if any) or the huge numbers of accounts that have come from others. I don't see that situation as equivalent to not knowing if there's a supreme being or entity. Maybe that's just my different perspective?

I should lay my cards on the table. I'm not especially big on physical mediumship but I acknowledge it's value in the way I do other forms of mediumship. It's real value to me is when mediums - not phenomenalists - use it to demonstrate survival - period, full-stop. I'm not much interested in anyone producing phenomena for the sake of producing phenomena. But I despise those who fake anything.
 

mac

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