Discussion in 'General Afterlife Discussions' started by Convolution, Nov 30, 2018.
time to get back to the thread subject
Dear Monika, I apologize for seeming angry. What you see is nothing but smoldering impatience. You are reading the worlds of a 72-year-old researcher who has spent the past fifty years of that time patiently building - as have others, most also now about my age - overwhelming evidence from many sources of a whole and entirely consistent, complex and wonderful greater reality while we patiently waited for the people who SHOULD have been seeking reality - those who call themselves scientists - to begin to look at these amazing truths, even a little bit! We did eventually come to realize what the problem was - that the university departments and the peer-reviewed journals had a century ago deliberately made materialism what they literally called "the fundamental scientific dogma" in order to anoint themselves as gatekeepers to keep the whole scientific community from ever looking at non-physical possibilities. So I began back then to read Scientific American with great interest, watching for signs that the whole stupid and useless dam (which primarily affects physics but harms all the other scientific disciplines as well) to break. But it still has not broken. What has broken has been mainstream science! I have watched in SA how they went from hopefully saying "we'll have this nailed any minute" to "Um, maybe this new gluon might be something but we really don't know what." And STILL they carry on this charade that they actually have it all covered! Those scientists who are not in bodies at the moment and are working on things like the soul phone tell us now that the only way to get scientists ever to study these truths will be to make the primacy and eternity of human minds so obvious to everyone that at last the scientific community will be shamed into studying it. As the great Nikola Tesla said, “The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.”
I am not angry with anyone on this website, and I do respect the fact that we all have different paths. My only concern is keeping the threads here free of garbage, since nearly everyone who visits this website is seeking good information but never joins. I am not angry with the scientific community, either. In fact, it has been fun to watch SA turn into a humor magazine and to be able pretty much to give them the answers to what they are increasingly finding to be questions they never can answer. It's fun to know more than the physicists know, and I never even took physics in high school!
So when Conv0lution initially started saying that science could figure it out, I had a fifty-year history of knowing that yes it could figure it out but no it won't figure it out. I explained this to Convolution, who ignored my explanation and instead was sadly disappointed in me for being so anti-science. I explained it again in a different thread. Again, Convolution never considered my explanation of why science cannot help us because s/he knew a lot more than I did, and wrote another sadly disappointed put-down of me. And Bluebird, for good measure, chimed in. BB and I have a long history that I won't go into here, but she delights in calling me wrong, and for her to decide Convolution was right meant that she didn't care about the facts either but only saw yet another opportunity to snipe at me.
My personal fact is that the only thing I care about doing with whatever little time I have left in a body that I will be thrilled to leave is elevating all of humankind by raising this planet's vibration away from fear and anger and hatred and toward ever more perfect love. The ONLY thing! With apologies to my husband of 46 years and to my three children and eight grandchildren. It is this WORK that I care about now. I am sad for Convolution and BB, but I am not angry with them either. I am, though, impatient with ANYTHING that gets in the way of this work, and for them to keep insisting that science can help after I have patiently and repeatedly told them that science as it is presently constituted cannot and will not help is something I simply do not have the time to keep doing. At the age of 72, and with so much still to do, my patience with repeated insistence on willful ignorance on this website that I maintain purely for the discussion of what is true is a great deal shorter than it used to be.
Thank you, Roberta
Just a thought: Mercury retrograde ends today and it is a time of major miscommunication and also anger all of which I'm sadly witnessing here.
If we humans are affected generally by such events then we may have little control of either ourselves or events it seems.....
But please don't mistake frustration and/or impatience for anger, something perhaps easily done when you're not actually involved. I certainly know the differences within myself and can see them in certain others.
I didn’t sense any anger from Roberta whatsoever. Only frustration. It could be due to the fact that I’ve known Roberta through this forum for several years and recently over the phone. So I know some of the things she’s had to deal with throughout the years and she’s taken it like a champ in my opinion. She has not a mean nor hateful bone in her body and I consider her to be one of my best ALF friends and it wasn’t a cake walk to get there believe me lol.
It hurts to see one of your friends get frustrated and it took a lot for me to hold my tongue back, but I know Roberta can hold her own and that things will eventually calm down. This is all I will say about the recent events that’s transpired and will not mention it anymore so that the thread can get back on subject.
It could be that what you consider valid scientific efidence may not be considered so by scientists. For example, if you are getting your evidence from books where people gathered to try and summon or speak with spirits in some fashion that wasn't controlled, without some kind of a paper that can give out procedures and data in detail such that it may be studied and replicated by others, it may not be considered good science.
That doesn't mean it isn't true. Just that we don't have much of a way of know it is true, even if there are many examples of it.
It could also be that you have legitimate evidence and people simply did not take the time to go through it, which would be a shame.
I can't possibly know, right now, which is the case, but I would like to discover
I would love to go through your sources of evidence. Could you point me the direction to look at to find it? Perhaps I should start with one of your books? Which one? Etc. Thank you.
The burden of proof is always on those trying to effect a change of some kind. Usually, the more monumental the change required, the more impressive the proof must be. A lot of scientists confuse this idea with the notion that whatever views of the world they have are immutable, since in their heads the proof required to "break" the current understanding would be larger than they can ever picture finding. They refuse to read further, as they find it a waste of time, for having sometimes spent time considering it in the future, and don't expect to find anything. It's much like the frustration you described feeling, except that it's the flip side of it. So both sides are very frustrated.
Then there is also the investment that people put into their world views, which creates a natural bias.
But in science, if there is one true thing we have learned, is that sooner or later we discover something new that shifts the ground we stand upon. Nothing is fixed.
Imagine if one day soon, the afterlife as you see it got accepted and respected, you and others develop a theory and understanding of the mechanics. All is well. You've spent a good chunk of your lifetime devoted to this.
Then comes a young scientist and finds that there is a flaw, the theory is broken, and shows a new one which works far better- but also I validates everything you have worked at.
I imagine it would be quite hard for you, and you would resist changing and giving up your notion of the afterlife. You would still want to hold one to it even if it were shown the phenomena could be attributed to something else entirely.
Now, the example is not excute for current scientistis behaving as they do.nit is simply given so that perhaps you may find a place for empathy for those who have spent their entire careers, or at least a good chunk of their lives and emotions, as you have,, toward something that may get invalidated. Perhaps that empathy coukd help center you a bit more away from the frustration you feel, and toward a constructive understanding of others. They are human beings like you. On a journey of self discovery. All part of the same teachings you try to impart about what this is all about, all deserving love, acceptance, and looking for a place to belong.
Anyway, I agree that it would be much nicer if everyone and all institutions were open to change, constantly. Historically, they usually have not been. It helps to understand, also, that in addition to that emotional bias and investment, all institutions have time and financial budgets and must choose to allocate them somehow. They have limits, and often have to choose what to spend it on, out of many possibilities. Again, not an excuse, just a part of a reality which may help you find forgiveness.
There are those who do want what you speak of, and fight for it, and want to look at data in a fair way as well.
Anyway, according to spiritual teachings, it doesn't quite matter. We are all deserving of unconditional love- right? Perhaps that is part of your growth journey, to have the experience you are having and learn to find love, understanding and forgiveness there. Just food for thought.
The status quo is usually a self perpetuating system. But it does change. It just always takes time, effort, reason. Great data helps.
Tesla was clearly brilliant. I searched for that quote, but cannot find a context. Without context, it's possible he was speaking of spirits, psi, or also electromagnetism/universal forces, an area of study that fascinated him always, and which at the time were in their infancy study wise. In any case I do agree that if we are able to make the eternity of human minds obvious, there will be a shift. To make it obvious we need good, clear and obvious data, or some kind of reliable phenomenon that could be shared en mass.
Studies of NDEs inyerest me exactly for this reason. NDEs contain that verifiable OBE aspect which could be just that obvious piece of the puzzle which tells a large number of people that we've got to pay closer attention to this other aspect of life.
Great. I think that different ideas, opinions, and questions about verifying information are not garbage. Do you agree?
I think that these questions and the answers provided could also help some of those who lurk and think alike to join as well.
I find that whenever I am learning a new subject matter, the more I discover, the less I realize I know, since knowledge extends almost to the infinite, and so many things remain undiscovered. They go from "unknown unknowns" to "known unknowns".
I find that as soon as we say we truly know something is usually the moment we have stopped investigating. To investigate is to honestly acknowledge we do not know, and yet want to discover.
Again, science is just the tool. Right now, you could be the one doing science on what you do know to test it, and publish those results, along with a hypothesis of some kind. Science isn't people. You could choose to make that change, or perhaps partner up with people skilled in science that could help you get there.
I'm not anti science. Science requires validation, a process. Please show me the science you have, or the data and information that you have which could be turned into science. I am open to it, and waiting for you to share. Scientific results are highly shareable.
You keep saying I am not open to science, and I keep repeating I am. So, share science, and I will show I am open to it.
So, can science help and I just am not open to it, or can it just not help at all?
This is where we disagree. I do think science can help. I think science is in fact the only way we could take ideas and subjective experiences such as yours, along with what people have written in many books, and validate it all in some reliable and controlled fashion. If it cannot be shown to work, even a fraction of the time, with significant results, we'll get one answer (admittedly a sad one). But it could also yield positive results. Either are good, as they point us further toward the truth.
For one who claims spiritual advancement, you do tend to put yourself under a light of victimhood, which seems quite contrary to spiritual teachings.
I'm not sure Bluebird decided I was right, as I'm not sure the discussion was about right or wrong. We are all searching for truth. There is no wrong way to search. What determines right from wrong are our goals. If we seek subjective truth, there are good and not so great ways to go about it. The same with objective truth, proof. Personally verifiable proof vs proof which applies to and can be shared with others for validation. All of those require different methods of searching.
I've stated I am searching for the kind which can be studied and shared, whether that turns out to be a futile pursuit or not. I don't see a reason for defensiveness, honestly. It's all towards a similar goal. And in the end, according to spiritual teachings, all journeys are OK. Why defend?
You could start by acting loving and with high vibrations towards all here, including Bluebird, myself, or anyone you believe to share different viewpoints. Instead of seeing things as black & white, right or wrong, you could choose to appreciate the spectrum of viewpoints and see whether there is something to be learned somewhere, whatever that may be, toward your own further growth. These would truly show your loving intentions and help elevate at least this very forum, where so many may come to seeking for answers now and in the future.
Nothing gets I t eh way of the work of living and raising vibrations. Every action, and every conflict is an opportunity to show love, understanding. That is the work, for to change the world towards love we first must start by loving it and all.
I will kindly suggest that perhaps you may be so focused in disseminating the information you care about that along the way you aren't quite living in the way it calls for- trying to have unconditional love, understanding, empathy, to listen carefully and deeply.
Here you again seem to confuse some scientists with the notion of science. Science is just a method. There are people using this method to truly search for truth and there are some hiding behind it. All you're doing is speaking of those hiding behind. You've acknowledged there are some, in your other post (Dean Radin..m etc?) who are open minded in their scientific inquiry. So it does exist. It's just a tool which can be used. If you understand this, your argument disappears, for it is no longer relevant.
I'm not too concerned about the people who are hiding behind past scientific discoveries, I am searching for those who are not. Do you know more of these I could look into? (It's an honest question)
This apparent intolerance seems contrary to spiritual growth- yours and others, as the role of teacher you play here to many. Live the teachings you push.
If you are alive, there is time and opportunity to learn love, patience, openness. Don't you see that is the very essence of growing in spirit?
Regarding your very last paragraph aimed at Roberta, you are out of line. Some of us have made a mutual decision to move on from the misunderstandings and endless drivel that has transpired within the past couple of days. Why can’t you? Or maybe you can’t see past your own?
I replied to a post just made at 8am this morning. My post wasn't meant as an attack, but as response.
If the conversation is to be dropped, I can drop it.
Beyond a certain point continuation of an earlier conversation can appear antagonistic. It may not be intended that way but the effect can be much the same as if it were.
Separate names with a comma.