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Nde question

Discussion in 'General Afterlife Discussions' started by Litsa, Dec 18, 2018.

  1. Convolution

    Convolution Established Member

    I, at least, believe I understood.
    There is no drama from me.
    I understand I may have an unorthodox way of seeking out information. I don't ask that anyone understand how I get to my destination, I am simply interested in different points of view.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
    bluebird likes this.
  2. Ruby

    Ruby Established Member

    Convolution, I think your questions are very interesting, but am surprised you ask them as I would have thought you'd be the kind of rational thinker to think that nothing can be proven in the first place, never mind finding out others' points of view.

    Have you come to any conclusions yet? Anything at all you can be sure of?

    I think I've become almost addicted to reading about these subjects. I haven't advanced at all beyond just being interested in reading about a paranormal happening and the detective work to analyse what happened! I feel at a loss if I stop for a few days. It gives me hope in my loss. I've started David Fontana's 2005 book, "Is there an Afterlife?" Quite dry, but seems well informed and researched.
  3. poeticblue

    poeticblue member

    I never said it was coming from you in this particular instance. I was just making sure that certain others didn’t misunderstand what was being read between you and I.
  4. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    You have just made my point, but only halfway. Now imagine that what we are talking about is astronauts throwing that ball on the moon. Not only are there several astronauts playing catch on the moon, but also there is a whole crowd of people in a spaceship orbiting the moon and cheering them on! You are hearing accounts from the astronauts of how gravity works on the moon based upon their game of catch, and those are all consistent. You also are getting wildly different accounts of how gravity works on the moon from that eager crowd on the spaceship, who are not on the moon and are just glimpsing the game being played there.

    Now, what do you do? Whom do you believe? You cannot test any of these assumptions because you are on earth! You don't have to take any of these various accounts of how gravity works on the moon at face value, but your vaunted theories about the wonders of scientific testing won't work either because you are not on the moon and you never will be on the moon. Furthermore, it is unlikely that even if we start to send research physicists to the moon it will be many years - decades - before they will be willing to conduct your particular experiment. So if you do what you now plan to do before you can get the final word from those experimenting scientists - just listen to and value all the accounts - you will for many years or decades more know exactly zero about how gravity works on the moon!

    ... but you do have some first-hand accounts from people who are actually there and actually can tell you about their personal experiences, which - amazingly! - are all precisely consistent.

    Are you prepared to give those first-hand accounts from the people on the moon any greater weight at all?
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
  5. Convolution

    Convolution Established Member

    I guess a good point can be made that nothing is, or has ever been 100% proven, and that all we can ever do is get closer to some perceived notion of truth, as well as get a little closer to what others think, how they view the world.
    On the other end of the scale of highly likely non achievable ultimate truth is utter and complete ignorance. I'm sure an argument could also be made that there may be such thing as 100% complete ignorance.
    Somewhere in between is where we all are.
    I personally don't feel a need to address either point above everytime I post, but I still feel a need to try and get ever closer to that impossible standard, knowing no one will likely ever reach it.
    When I speak of finding truth, I am really referring to finding some reasonable level which may approximate truth in some way, at least in a manner closer than that which I/we understand to be "truth" at this very moment.

    I think we can get closer to whatever is right, and whenever our understanding is proven wrong once again, we will once more take another step closer to that ineffable it.
    That would be good enough for me, to be on that endless track, and inch ever closer. I just wish to know what closer is.

    None, unfortunately.
    That doesn't mean I don't have ideas I think may be more likely, but again, I haven't come to conclusions. Outside of the material I am reading from Roberta, I have also been reading about intermission memories from children which have verifiable aspects. I find these to be very interesting, as they give us a way to gain some higher level of trust about the information given of this possible life between lives. The issue, however, is that in some ways they differ from a lot of materials given by mediums and also NDEs, which are again different from all of them. And yet they share distinct similarities with both. It is puzzling.

    I read about it nearly every day as well. Took a brief pause this holiday, but will start once again tomorrow. I am also very curious. I haven't heard of that book. Seems interesting- what kinds of research does it focus in?
  6. Convolution

    Convolution Established Member

    That's an interesting analogy. I guess if the spectators were describing the situation of those in the moon from their point of view it would give me some clues that their reality wraps around those lower down. If their descriptions were a complete mismatch, then it would leave me at a loss, as it does now.
    I do try to value them all, since I have no idea yet which is closer to the notion of truth. But I also note the areas where they disagree. Both the areas of agreement and disagreement provide clues as to possible future investigation, I think.
    The issue is that they aren't fully consistent with some other reliable information, like that of spontaneous past life recall by children with intermission memories (roughly 20% of all the ones who have memories at all. Example: https://psi-encyclopedia.spr.ac.uk/articles/intermission-memories#footnote21_1wx0ahk ).
    A few of these provide verifiable information about people and things from the past.
    So I find those a bit more trust worthy. I don't know what can explain the disparity, of course.
    It depends. I think if I got accounts from people who were at the moon, remember being at the moon, but are now back on earth and can provide me with verifiable information about the last time they were on earth, or even things witnessed of earth while on the moon which get verified, I would trust those a lot as well.
    If those on the moon can provide as much verifiable information about Earth, I will also trust them at about the same level, until some even more reliable source becomes available.

    I do like your analogy. Thanks!
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
    bluebird likes this.
  7. Ruby

    Ruby Established Member

    Hi Convolution, David Fontana was a British professor of psychology. His book from 2005; "Is there an Afterlife?" has a lot of information about mediums, the Cross Correspondences and so on. He helped with the investigations at Scole in the 1990's. I'm not far into the book which goes into great detail, but so far I have enjoyed reading about his observations of the Cardiff poltergeist which seemingly had no connection with disturbed youth, but rather four middle-aged people in a lawnmower repair and garden accessories shop. "Pete the poltergeist" wasn't violent, but mischievous apparently, and even seemed to try to be helpful.
    To go back to the subject, he deals with NDE's towards the end but I haven't got there yet! There is a great deal of research detailed here.
    Convolution likes this.
  8. Ruby

    Ruby Established Member

    My son who is working here today asks me why I need to look into this when there's no evidence any of it is real. He thinks it's a waste of time and energy as the brain plays tricks, people's perceptions are faulty, their memories are false etc. Nothing can be proven, full stop. He knows what I saw and heard, but questions it, or rather, just dismisses it. Trouble is, I'm so caught. I'm not crazy, but the whole idea of surviving on another plane sounds ridiculous to me. It's funny how you can go along a certain route for a while, and someone you trust suddenly puts it to you plainly and you feel quite stupid. I suppose it's to be expected in a way, as none of us were brought up being taught or believing in this. Oh well. I'm not leaving the forum and will continue with reading everything I can find on these subjects. I know there's no proof, it's a matter of faith, like religion. I suppose it's an interest like any other.
  9. mac

    mac Staff Member

    You're right about one issue. There is no proof and you're right about a second one - for you it looks like remaining a matter of faith, your faith getting knocked by detractors who have no understanding and likely no experience. You're also right about a third but wrong about the fourth - the subjects of survival, communication et al are most certainly an interest for some of us but most certainly not like any other.... ;)

    I hope you eventually find what you need to feel persuaded but that's down to you. Please do stay with ALF but maybe you also need to look elsewhere. :)
  10. kim

    kim Regular Contributor

    How can someone not be interested in something so interesting? Are many humans too infatuated with the life they live here on this earth?

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