member responses and conversations - general

mac

Administrator
I suppose you're right....my guess is that that's most often the case for people who grew up in very dysfunctional households with a lot of conflict, or who had relationships with a lot of conflict. Maybe it gets kind of hard-wired into them, which is a shame. If there is an afterlife, I very much doubt it continues there, though (just my opinion).
I guess kids learn many things from parents, both negative and positive. Is that perhaps because they opt in their life-plans to experience such lives? I'm not suggesting it is but simply throwing it out as a discussion point. Whether negative behaviors are carried over into the so-called afterlife is moot but based on what I've heard there's every opportunity there of dropping old and negative values and living a very different and uplifting life.
 

bluebird

Major Contributor
I guess kids learn many things from parents, both negative and positive. Is that perhaps because they opt in their life-plans to experience such lives? I'm not suggesting it is but simply throwing it out as a discussion point. Whether negative behaviors are carried over into the so-called afterlife is moot but based on what I've heard there's every opportunity there of dropping old and negative values and living a very different and uplifting life.
I suppose anything is possible, but as you likely know I am not a believer in the idea that we each make a "life plan" prior to coming here, especially when doing so would involve a life of pain. In my opinion, some people believe in that concept in order to make themselves feel better about the horrible things that sometimes happen in their lives, and perhaps as a way to feel that they are exerting some control over those events in their lives (even if they exerted that control prior to their earthly birth/life).
 

mac

Administrator
I'm split about life-plans in a similar way to how I'm split about reincarnation. I feel confident both occur and apply to folk generally but I think many individuals have ideas that will eventually - when they have passed over into the next dimension - be found to have been wide of the mark.

With time on my hands, and uncertainty about details my regular companion nowadays, I downloaded a Kindle version of Red Cloud's book concerning his mission here on earth. I felt I should at least read what he had to say to compare with my favorite guide's words. I was disappointed but reassured that my preferred teacher was in 'a different league' and I'm happy to remain guided by much of what he communicated.

I can wait to learn the final details and, as I so often now remark, it likely ain't gonna be too long a wait anyway! ;):D
 

bluebird

Major Contributor
I'm split about life-plans in a similar way to how I'm split about reincarnation. I feel confident both occur and apply to folk generally but I think many individuals have ideas that will eventually - when they have passed over into the next dimension - be found to have been wide of the mark.

With time on my hands, and uncertainty about details my regular companion nowadays, I downloaded a Kindle version of Red Cloud's book concerning his mission here on earth. I felt I should at least read what he had to say to compare with my favorite guide's words. I was disappointed but reassured that my preferred teacher was in 'a different league' and I'm happy to remain guided by much of what he communicated.

I can wait to learn the final details and, as I so often now remark, it likely ain't gonna be too long a wait anyway! ;):D
I acknowledge that I may be wrong about life-plans; any of us could be wrong about any of this. And I'm not completely against the idea -- if there is a beforelife/afterlife, then I do think it's possible that some people, sometimes, make some kind of life plans prior to coming here (though I generally think it's more along the lines of choosing a country/area in which to be born, choosing parents, maybe choosing gender, possibly a talent or general life path like being a cowboy or a writer or a sailor....).

What I don't believe is that everyone plans out every detail of their lives beforehand, or even that everyone plans all of the major events of their lives (though some very well may), or even plans at all. Specifically in instances of horrible life situations, whether individual (like my husband dying) or shared (like the Holocaust), I do not believe that people choose those things, those life circumstances/events. I do not believe that anyone would choose to be burned alive in a concentration camp oven, or sexually molested throughout childhood, or born with severe birth defects, or live an entire life in extreme poverty, or be killed in a car accident at the age of two, etc. I think that anyone who suggests that some people do choose those things is completely wrong, and holds that view for one of two reasons (there may be more reasons, but these are the two that occur to me): (1) as I mentioned, in an attempt to make some sense of the crap in life, and to try to exert some control over it; (2) as a way to say that some people "deserve" what they get (usually in the case of people of whom they don't approve, such as drug addicts or sex workers or single mothers or LGBTQIA+ people, etc.).

Shitty things are going to happen to almost every person on earth, just as a result of the nature of human life, environment, and free will. It sucks, but that's how it is, and there's no reason to overlay some sort of grand pre-life plan over that; moreover, I don't think it's helpful to do so -- in fact I think it's harmful, as in some peoples' minds it can remove responsibility from people who choose to do horrible things to others (as in the case of rape, murder, robbery, abuse, etc., or even "smaller" things like cheating on a partner or ripping off customers or the like). When someone does something bad to someone else (assuming no weird/unusual circumstance such as a domestic abuse victim killing her/his abuser in self-defense or after years of abuse), that action and its results are the fault of the person who took that action, period. The recipient/victim of that action didn't "choose" it prior to coming to this life, the person who took the action did, in this life.

I suppose I view the concept of life-plans in much the same way as I view reincarnation, which you also mentioned -- if it does exist, then we have a choice as to whether or not we participate, and/or to what degree. If life-plans do exist, then certainly that's how it should be, at least in my opinion.
 

mac

Administrator
These are the kinds of difficulties free-thinkers face. It comes down to one's personal beliefs about the way a plan for life might operate. No matter how dreadful something might seem, it has to be a possibility that somebody just MIGHT want to experience its horror. But from this dimension it makes no sense that large numbers would choose it and that's our biggest problem - spiritual myopia.

I've given up trying to make sense of individual or mass horror situations. I could play the role of Devil's Advocate for most or all of them but what's the point? We understand so little and just getting one's head around survival is a big enough step for many. Going beyond that point is, well, pointless until you're persuaded that there's something beyond corporeal death.

As members will know I have no doubts but understanding much more is beyond my ken and I don't try any more. Maybe it's my age but I just don't care now about anything more than trying to help others find their own way to understand death and survival.

If I can help do that then I've achieved enough for this simple soul and I leave all the fancy arguments to others now.
 

bluebird

Major Contributor
These are the kinds of difficulties free-thinkers face. It comes down to one's personal beliefs about the way a plan for life might operate. No matter how dreadful something might seem, it has to be a possibility that somebody just MIGHT want to experience its horror. But from this dimension it makes no sense that large numbers would choose it and that's our biggest problem - spiritual myopia.

I've given up trying to make sense of individual or mass horror situations. I could play the role of Devil's Advocate for most or all of them but what's the point? We understand so little and just getting one's head around survival is a big enough step for many. Going beyond that point is, well, pointless until you're persuaded that there's something beyond corporeal death.

As members will know I have no doubts but understanding much more is beyond my ken and I don't try any more. Maybe it's my age but I just don't care now about anything more than trying to help others find their own way to understand death and survival.

If I can help do that then I've achieved enough for this simple soul and I leave all the fancy arguments to others now.

Well let me ask you this, then, playing Devil's Advocate for a moment. Suppose some people do choose to experience some horrific event in life, do make a "life-plan" while in the beforelife which includes that event.

Why? Why would they choose/do that? For what reason, towards what end?
 

mac

Administrator
Well let me ask you this, then, playing Devil's Advocate for a moment. Suppose some people do choose to experience some horrific event in life, do make a "life-plan" while in the beforelife which includes that event.

Why? Why would they choose/do that? For what reason, towards what end?
why? For their spiritual advancement just as with any other experience, positive or negative. So many experiences in this physical world won't be available elsewhere and - we're taught - those experiences enhance the rate of our spiritual progress.

Consider a horrible experience, something the average Joe or Josephine Spirit wouldn't encounter during discarnate life. If we accept experiences here enhance our progress then experiencing even a horrible one will do that and it will be something we wouldn't experience elsewhere. If we accept that all experiences here somehow enhance our progress then even 'negative' outcomes will too.

All experiences are for our spiritual progress and even the ones we consider negative can do that. BUT not for one moment am I suggesting that all horrible experiences, the ones we consider negative, are pre-planned. (in my estimation) Unlike in the world of the spirit, the actions and omissions of others can impact our planned events. (if you can accept we plan at least some of them) So one's plans can be scuppered by others resulting in an outcome that hadn't been one's intention. Or something could go wrong - accident, ill health, misfortune - leading to an unplanned outcome. And we can't figure one from another while we're incarnate.
 

bluebird

Major Contributor
I suppose I just don't believe that it is necessary to experience horrible things in order to "spiritually progress" -- and if I'm wrong about that, then I don't think whatever spiritual progress may be made is worth the pain.

I agree with this: "BUT not for one moment am I suggesting that all horrible experiences, the ones we consider negative, are pre-planned. (in my estimation) Unlike in the world of the spirit, the actions and omissions of others can impact our planned events. (if you can accept we plan at least some of them) So one's plans can be scuppered by others resulting in an outcome that hadn't been one's intention."
 

mac

Administrator
I agree with you - it's not necessary to exprience to make progress but it enhances it in a way we don't understand - if you accept what teachers and guides tell us....
 
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