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member responses and conversations - general

Discussion in 'Carol and Mikey Q&A 'follow-on-discussions'' started by mac, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. bluebird

    bluebird Major Contributor

    I accept that what you relay are your views, and to that extent and in that context I respect them. However, I do not share them. For example, I don't agree that saying "Just nature" is the same as saying "just god". If nature is all there is, if there is no sentient god, then there is no god, as far as I'm concerned. Nature is wonderful, and is a creator in a sense, but that is not the same as being god, to my way of thinking/believing. Any creator god must have purpose, will, intention -- anything short of that is not god to me. If there is a god then nature may be one expression of that god, but it is not itself god.

    You should not assume that I am "tainted against seeing what is the truth", as you simply cannot know whether or not that is an accurate assessment. To me, it is not only my grief that makes me think there is likely no god, it is more so the fact that humans as a whole do not know without doubt that their dead loved ones still exist and that they will again be with them (we could possess that knowledge/surety and still grieve). I could possibly accept, albeit barely, that death might be a necessary transition in life -- but I cannot accept that any good comes from us not being assured of the continued existence of our loved ones after death, and of our future reconciliation with them.

    I understand that you believe in the existence of an afterlife and of god, despite the grief you have experienced. Your personal experiences and research have led you to that conclusion. That's fine, and it is your path -- but that doesn't mean you are correct (doesn't mean you aren't, either -- that's my point).

    Also, you should not assume that I have not had any enlightening experiences, as I have had more than a few -- but they do not prove to me the existence of an afterlife or of god (they provide more glimmers of possibility regarding an afterlife than of god, to me). Just because your experiences have made you believe that "the unbelievable grief is exactly the point" does not mean that anyone/everyone else must agree with you, nor does it mean that you are necessarily correct in your view. I absolutely do not believe that the grief is the point -- and if I am wrong about that, then if a god does exist it is a cruel bastard.
     
  2. STEVEN LEVEE

    STEVEN LEVEE New Member

    Hi Blue, I'm reading a book about a psychiatrist Dr. who's wife is a medium. It is a true book about a real Dr. (You can look him up; Dr. Carl Wickland) He uses her to extricate low level spirits who attach themselves to carnate people on the earth plane. These people are mistakenly diagnosed as mad/crazy, etc...This is from that book from one of the extricated spirits who is no longer lower level:

    "You wonder where the real life is. The real life is on the other side of the grave, as you call it. This life is only a temporary school—the school of learning to know ourselves, and for what object we are here. People think that when they die they will see God, but how few realize what God means. God is the Life of all things. How little people think of this earth plane and what it really is. It is only an infinitesimal part of the Universe."
     
    baob likes this.
  3. mac

    mac Staff Member

    There's any number of individuals' personal accounts, and compilations of individuals' accounts, but they are not the same as persuasive, personal evidence - PPE!

    What has been be heard from modern day authors' sources is similar to what teachers and guides have told us for many, many decades. But if all their words and ideas aren't persuasive for any particular individual then no matter how many words, how many ideas, how much teaching from however many sources is heard or read by that individual the chances are high that (s)he will remain unpersuaded.

    Similarly with the notion of God. My understanding of God is very likely to be very different from the understanding of many others - from experience it's different from just about everybody else's I've come into contact with! But no matter how comfortable I am with MY understanding/conception, no matter how comfortable anybody else is with their own, NOBODY knows what God truly is. We have just vague - and probably wrong - ideas. And Wickland's hypnotised individuals are just as likely to be wrong as we incarnates are likely to be wrong - caveat emptor.
     
    bluebird likes this.
  4. bluebird

    bluebird Major Contributor

    Interesting, but again only one person's viewpoint/path (even if that person is now in an afterlife). That said, if there is an afterlife then I agree that we probably come to this earthly life in order to learn, then return to that afterlife. Still, none of this proves the existence of an afterlife, and certainly not the existence of a god (it is possible that an afterlife exists even if a god does not).

    If there is a god, I don't know what it is -- that's my point. No one does. If there is an afterlife, I don't necessarily think that I will "see god" -- honestly, I don't even think I would want to, given the choice, unless it were willing to explain to me why it allowed my husband to die when he did. And again -- if "god" is no more than "the Life of all things", then that is no god, in my estimation, that's just the lifeforce being expressed.
     
  5. bluebird

    bluebird Major Contributor

    Agreed, and thank you.
     
  6. STEVEN LEVEE

    STEVEN LEVEE New Member

    Agreed here too:)!

    From what I understand. We choose our own lives before we come to this plane and we decide what we'll experience with our own soul groups.
    There are any number of exit points we have chosen when deciding to come here in the first place.
    My Dad died when I was 7 at 50 years old, because he chose to do so.
    Death is only hard on the living. He did what he needed to do on this plane & moved on as he planned to do before coming here.
    I was an incredibly sad little boy for a very long time.
    There was a lesson to be learned in that for me.
    I wish I knew then what I know now!
    I feel bad that you don't realize this Blue...It would help alot:)!
     
  7. mac

    mac Staff Member

    In recent times I've become increasingly uneasy about the notion I've been peddling of multiple, pre-decided exit points, wondering if it's simply one more New Age notion. I've tried to find out if there's any similar guidance from more traditional and customary sources, thus far the answer appearing to be no. As for choosing our lives as part of pre-incarnation plans my guess is that we're not able to plan them as much as we might suppose. Again I'm wondering if it's something 'new-agey'.

    While I've been locked in at home during the pandemic's restrictions I've been giving more thought to these and other issues and realising I've been allowing myself to be influenced by others' views rather than following my own persuasions.
     
    baob likes this.
  8. mac

    mac Staff Member

    bluebird is more than capable of answering for herself but I see the last line as presumptious and pompous. We have no right to believe we know what would be right for another individual.
     
    bluebird likes this.
  9. bluebird

    bluebird Major Contributor

    Personally, I don't believe that our existence is anywhere near that structured or planned -- but to each her/his own belief. :)

    I am sorry for your loss of your father; I'm sure that was very difficult for you.

    I do not share your belief that our loved ones die in order for us to learn lessons, or that that is the point of their deaths. Even if I did believe that, it would not help me at all -- it would only strengthen my inclination to view god, if there is one, as evil and cruel.

    I think you probably mean well in what you are saying, but I also think that you need to realize that while you have every right to believe as you choose, that doesn't mean that what you believe is right overall/objectively, and it certainly doesn't mean that what you believe is right for every/anyone else to believe, or that believing such would help anyone else. We each have our own path.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
  10. bluebird

    bluebird Major Contributor

    I'm with you on that -- I don't think we make "life plans" (outside of possibly some broad strokes), and I doubt we have multiple, pre-decided exit points. As I've said before, I think that people like to try to impose such structure on their lives (beforelife, earthly life, and afterlife), because having that semblance of structure makes them feel safer. I can understand that, I just don't feel the same way about it.
     

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