forced reincarnation

[RobertaGrimes]

I hope you'll be patient with this numpty who would like a little more detail. I'm the first to acknowledge that not everything is 'black-or-white' and there may be exceptions to rules.

I'm forever passing on the message that we have freedom to choose - supported and helped in decision making by spiritually-advanced souls - about what we do next after an incarnation. That involves considering whether we'd like, or whether we need, a further lifetime. Any notion there may be compulsion leaves me somewhat uneasy and it's for that reason I'm going to ask a couple of further questions of Mikey.

question 1: In connection with forced return, how rare is rare? I realise that may be hard to quantify but are we speaking about an occasional soul every century or thousand years or is it tens or hundreds annually?

question 2: Will you please tell us about an individual we'd know and the reasons for his being compelled to return?

question 3: What kind of exceptional situations might lead to the forced return of an unwilling spirit?

At this point, and before you've given your thoughts, I have to say this topic of compulsion is not sitting comfortably with me. I hope, Mikey, you'll have something to say to lessen that disquiet.

Dear Mac, there actually are at least two cases of forced return in the century-old literature. In every case, the one returning was stubborn, willful, and entirely unwilling to listen to anyone there who was trying to counsel and help him. That eventually forcing him back into a body was a kind of hail-mary pass, when nothing else ever had worked in getting him to take things seriously. Probably a good move for those spiritual helpers! But maybe for us another potential school-shooter :-(.

 

[mac]

Dear Mac, there actually are at least two cases of forced return in the century-old literature.

I'd love to hear more about them, Roberta. Perhaps you could clue me up? Mikey wasn't prepared to tell me about anyone but your two must be known. How were the claims of forced return authenticated and by whom?

In every case, the one returning was stubborn, willful, and entirely unwilling to listen to anyone there who was trying to counsel and help him.

I wasn't aware counseling was mandatory..... As for being ".....stubborn, willful, and entirely unwilling to listen...." my immediate response is "So what would be achieved by forcing the individual into a further incarnation when plainly that individual wasn't ready for it?"

That eventually forcing him back into a body was a kind of hail-mary pass, when nothing else ever had worked in getting him to take things seriously.

I'm not familiar with a "hail-mary pass" but it hardly sounds a suitable approach to me.

Probably a good move for those spiritual helpers! But maybe for us another potential school-shooter :-(.

Or perhaps the behaviors of the incarnate we knew as Adolph Hitler might be attributed to the forced return of an unwilling spirit? If so would his crimes against his fellow humans be seen by his spirit counsellors/helpers as acceptable outcomes - one might ask - for their causing that return? Might many monstrous behaviors be the outcomes of forced reincarnations, the actions of very unhappy spirits doubly-unhappy at being forced back to somewhere they hated previous times around?

This is where the Silver Birch test results in a big 'fail' for me - it does not appeal to my reason at all and goes against all I understand of the process of reincarnation. If there's compelling evidence I'm wrong then I'd love to hear/read it so maybe you can point me in the right direction?

I haven't got long to go in this world but at least I could begin to put right my misleading of those I tried to help.

 

[Lola Hoovler]

Good questions, Robin and Mac. I have been reading this particular thread and came up with pretty much the same questions and concerns as you have. It has always been a "sore" subject for me and I'm now no further ahead than I was 20 years ago. (A hail Mary pass is a term used in football for a last ditch effort to score points).

 

[mac]

Good questions, Robin and Mac. I have been reading this particular thread and came up with pretty much the same questions and concerns as you have. It has always been a "sore" subject for me and I'm now no further ahead than I was 20 years ago. (A hail Mary pass is a term used in football for a last ditch effort to score points).

Thanks, Lola, for the clarification. I watch soccer football but not American football so I didn't know that term.

The older I become the more resistant I am to accepting stuff that doesn't make sense to me - the SB test! What I'm very uncomfortable about now is the possibility I've been significantly misleading others. If forced reincarnation happens with 1% of the global population then that's a significant number - readers can 'do the math' as yous guys say over here.

If there's such a large number of souls who are gonna be forced back into bodies then I need to understand why they need it and how it's brough about.

 

[Lola Hoovler]

How are you, Mac? This reincarnation business is so upsetting to me. It might sound silly, but I just can't help it. I've always been suspicious that reincarnation may be forced on some people, but I don't have any proof that it's not just coming from my own personal fears. I think that part of the reason there are so many different versions of it in Western culture is because reincarnation stems from the Eastern religions, and for eons, it was hardly ever discussed in Western society. Maybe the answer is more easily obtained from studying Eastern religions, although their ideas vary on it as well. Wasn't it Silver Birch who said through his medium that he never knew a spirit who reincarnated, but he believed in it anyway? That certainly doesn't help to clarify the matter. I simply can't understand why forcing people to come back here in a confused, possibly hateful' state of mind would be helpful in any way.

As far as you misleading anyone, it certainly wasn't intentional. We all inadvertently mislead people sometimes. You had the unselfish goal of being helpful, and that is what counts.

 

[mac]

How are you, Mac?

Thanks for asking, Lola. I'm doing just fine. This reincarnation lark isn't upsetting me the way it is you and I'm sorry to hear it's doing that.

This reincarnation business is so upsetting to me. It might sound silly, but I just can't help it. I've always been suspicious that reincarnation may be forced on some people, but I don't have any proof that it's not just coming from my own personal fears. I think that part of the reason there are so many different versions of it in Western culture is because reincarnation stems from the Eastern religions, and for eons, it was hardly ever discussed in Western society. Maybe the answer is more easily obtained from studying Eastern religions, although their ideas vary on it as well.

I'm not buying any of it until I've heard more to persuade me. Which is awkward because some comes from Mikey Morgan who I respect greatly but whose ideas I won't accept unless they appeal to my reason. Same with the Eastern religions stuff.

Wasn't it Silver Birch who said through his medium that he never knew a spirit who reincarnated, but he believed in it anyway?

SB said some of his peers had said that. He didn't just believe it was for real - he was sure it was kosher.

That certainly doesn't help to clarify the matter.

It does for me until someone establishes SB wasn't being honest in what he said.

I simply can't understand why forcing people to come back here in a confused, possibly hateful' state of mind would be helpful in any way.

And it's this idea that is perplexing me because as yet I have not heard a persuasive argument.

As far as you misleading anyone, it certainly wasn't intentional. We all inadvertently mislead people sometimes. You had the unselfish goal of being helpful, and that is what counts.

Well thank you for that support but for me motive alone is not good enough. I remain unpersuaded as yet, however, that I've been wrong.

 

[Lola Hoovler]

Well if SB said that some of his peers said that rather than him, and if he feels it is kosher, that is a whole different story. I misunderstood and thought he had said it. Oddly, I remember tons of stuff from Silver Birch, but nothing relative to reincarnation. However, it's been a long time since my Silver Birch fascination, and I didn't read every single book available about him. The reason some of this upsets me is because I have misgivings about anyone, whether alive or dead, forcing anyone to do something against their will. Like you, I'm not buying into anything without something further to persuade me.

 

[mac]

Now I often say to readers that they should be cautious about how our friends unseen talk about things that are going to happen in this world. I can't see how someone in a dimension that has no time can in any meaningful way forecast events yet to come about. Something promised may take years, decades or centuries - or even longer. That's an opener to my next point.

In an earlier posting in another thread I asked how many individuals might be forced to reincarnate - and why. The 'why' bit was explained as ".....Very unloving ways with total resistance during the life review with their higher spiritual guides. Mikey tells me we all know what very unloving ways and behaviors are here on this earth.....They can be continuous with many. Then they return to the afterlife and give total resistance to learning....ego is still in full force..."

In answer to the 'how many' bit Mikey said he could not give a number, but that "..it's less than 1%. (Of the entire population.)" Now that's a potentially huge variation from 1 to a smidgen less than 1%.

Initially that doesn't seem that large but let's for the sake of calculation say it's the latter. The estimated population of the world is 7.7 billion and 1% of that is 77 million. Put more simply, between now and the death of the last individual perhaps 70 years later (or whatever number of years), are we saying there might be as few as 1 individual forced to reincarnate but potentialy as many as close on 77 million! This isn't working for me.

Are we talking about a few mad killer dictators such as Mugabe, Hitler, Nicolae Ceaușescu or who-have-you; or a few madmen shooters such as those seen in this lovely nation and sometimes elsewhere? Or might it be the thousands of convicted criminals languishing in jail, serving their sentences before getting out to do something else that's unacceptable? Are they the bad-lads who might in future be forced back here after their previous incarnation? Or are they here because in the past they had been forced back to learn to improve their ways?

This isn't working for me - who's got any ideas to make sense of this nonsense?

 

[Lola Hoovler]

I absolutely agree! How could anyone who no longer has any conception of time be able to predict with any accuracy anything that involves time? I do, however, believe the explanation that some of the newly dead are totally resistant to any counseling or help that may be 0ffered, and I especially believe that the ego is still in full force. No one changes initially after they die. Sending them back, however, to start all over again is ridiculous, in my opinion, as even though they won't consciously remember their prior life, I strongly feel that whatever hatred and rage they had in their prior incarnation will manifest somehow in their current lifetime. causing anguish and misery for others. Some would say that this adds to our spiritual growth. Really?? I must have missed the boat here because it certainly doesn't add to mine.

 

[RobertaGrimes]

I'd love to hear more about them, Roberta. Perhaps you could clue me up? Mikey wasn't prepared to tell me about anyone but your two must be known. How were the claims of forced return authenticated and by whom?

Dear Mac, I read about them decades ago - when I was blundering around the early-20th-century literature while I was nursing babies and just trying to figure out if the afterlife is even real. At that time I didn't believe in reincarnation, so when someone speaking to relatives through a deep-trance medium talked about how some guy had been forced back into a body but that was probably the only hope for him, it was more the "Wha...??" that the communicator had mentioned reincarnation (or something like it) that made it stick in my mind. And the other mention was even more random. I think we can safely say that if it happens at all, it is extremely rare, and in fact so rare that if you would rather not believe in it at all that is perfectly fine.

 

[mac]

Dear Mac, I read about them decades ago - when I was blundering around the early-20th-century literature while I was nursing babies and just trying to figure out if the afterlife is even real. At that time I didn't believe in reincarnation, so when someone speaking to relatives through a deep-trance medium talked about how some guy had been forced back into a body but that was probably the only hope for him, it was more the "Wha...??" that the communicator had mentioned reincarnation (or something like it) that made it stick in my mind. And the other mention was even more random. I think we can safely say that if it happens at all, it is extremely rare, and in fact so rare that if you would rather not believe in it at all that is perfectly fine.

It's not disbelief, Roberta, it's just that these claims have not been evidenced to my satisfaction - I'm tough on 'stuff' like this nowadays. Put it down to old-age crankiness but also to experience......

I'm very wary of any claim that doesn't ring true, that 'offends my reason', but it may go in the pigeon-hole marked 'for possible later attention' rather than just getting rejected out-of-hand.

For me if the number of individuals or the reasons for their enforced return aren't known/can't be disclosed I'm left doubting how accurately the information has been communicated in the first place.

 

[RobertaGrimes]

It's not disbelief, Roberta, it's just that these claims have not been evidenced to my satisfaction - I'm tough on 'stuff' like this nowadays. Put it down to old-age crankiness but also to experience......

I'm very wary of any claim that doesn't ring true, that 'offends my reason', but it may go in the pigeon-hole marked 'for possible later attention' rather than just getting rejected out-of-hand.

For me if the number of individuals or the reasons for their enforced return aren't known/can't be disclosed I'm left doubting how accurately the information has been communicated in the first place.

Assume it's not accurate! It's anecdotal. Toss it.

 

[mac]

Assume it's not accurate! It's anecdotal. Toss it.

I prefer to put it in my 'later' pigeon-hole; not rejected, not accepted.

 

[Kurt]

Dear Mac, there actually are at least two cases of forced return in the century-old literature. In every case, the one returning was stubborn, willful, and entirely unwilling to listen to anyone there who was trying to counsel and help him. That eventually forcing him back into a body was a kind of hail-mary pass, when nothing else ever had worked in getting him to take things seriously. Probably a good move for those spiritual helpers! But maybe for us another potential school-shooter :-(.

Quite the unique case indeed.... High enough to escape the outer darkeness but low enough to require a hail Mary incarnatuon.