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Afterlife fears

mac

janitor / administrator
Staff member
I feel incredibly strongly against the idea of reincarnating here for 'experience' and I feel like it's a way that my spirit is telling my human mind that it's either not as common of a concept as what people online make it out to be. Ergo resulting in my current crisis.
If one accepts the premise that we incarnate in the first instance to experience what we can't experience elsewhere then there's no logical reason to reject the possibility we MIGHT want to return.

I see sometimes people advocate for the idea that we come in soul groups (generally around 10 individuals) and share the experience together with planned interactions etc. But there are too many variables that don't make logical sense.
It depends which source you're taking notice of. In 'Soul Trek' by Julie Gale her channeled communicator explains the structure and function of 'soul-groups' or 'soul-cells'. He says that soul groups can range in number from a small handful to hundreds or more. The members - as with ourselves - are on individual journeys of spiritual discovery. To understand why and how it also applies to all of us one needs to read the whole book.



Firstly how large are these groups, within the web of people I know, spreading to the people they know, you'd end up with thousands of people just as a low ball as by that logic we would all be interlinked by love. Also one thing I don't care for is the idea that we switch roles apparently.
Firstly see above. But if in your spirit form you still don't care for being in a soul group, if you are determined you won't be part of one then that's the end of it - job sorted. Nobody is going to compel you. But think on that right now you're pretty much ignorant - as are most of us - about how we'll feel when we don't live in a body. You know how you feel now but as an incarnate you know next-to-nothing. Doesn't it make sense that when you know more you may see things somewhat differently?


The caring and nurturing nature of my mother is how I am able to form such a strong bond with her (and many other mothers out there). If by some unfortunate circumstance I am to be my mothers grandpa in the next life, what sick game is this and why are we being forced to play in this performance for some cosmic cheap thrill role play situation. Considering the suffering we go through here emotionally.
See above....

That then overpours onto a subsequent identity crisis. If a person can keep reincarnating and taking on any contradictory set of personality traits, likes, etc then essentially the person doesn't retain an identity. How does that merge with my personality? Who really am I? and it just makes no sense on a fundamental level as I'd be 2 different individuals - This would apply to other members of our family, friends, partners etc. The concept of an 'oversoul' also makes it seem like we are a puppet if you think about it and it's often referenced as a different entity altogether. "Your oversoul" more or less sounds like "your OVERSEER". The analogy of this life being similar to a simulation or a game is a little sickening, again almost making this existence seem like a joke. This life among many others is a chapter in our oversoul's existence that will eventually be forgotten? wow that sounds so enlightening o_O

It's somewhat contradictory that if we do come here to 'learn a lesson' or 'experience something' why do we completely forget all of that planning before we arrive? It's like studying for a test then purposefully forgetting everything before the actual exam! Because apparently if we don't achieve said goal then we opt to come back??? so it's an illogical cycle.

Also we’d pretty much have to forget our loved ones and friends from here because they’d just be different people after the next life. So in retrospect - the premise of reincarnation actually is oblivion/ true death in my eyes. Ironically most beliefs around the world see reincarnation as a sort of punishment.. but for a lot of new age spiritualists it's this awesome concept that they can forget everyone and everything just for another theoretically random shot at life where we can be subject to potential horrible torment.. and we won't even know why we're here. Yay!
You have so much to learn. :(

I feel like the notion gained a lot of traction as it's a new age spiritualism concept that some people have clung onto because it sounds like it works without thinking of the holes in the theory. Much like you I hope we retain our unique connections with one another when we pass, I also hope to find someone special as you have in your life here. If reincarnation is a collective choice then let's hope that we all love each other enough to forgo the trivial game and grow together.

There is also this growing theory that reincarnation is a trap. In fact there is a documented interaction in 1981 of aliens (interdimensional beings) contacting us in order to help stop reincarnating as humans. A woman received telepathic contact from a group of entities calling themselves Ra from a higher dimension. (I haven't deeply delved into that topic as I have planned it as my weekend activity here in cold Australia this time of year).
In curmudgeon mode by this point I can now only shake my head in dismay and disbelief.

You hold so many firm views based on....well let's just say questionable information, personal belief/prejudice and a deep lack of understanding. I've seen it here and elsewhere many times before. Maybe it's time I just left individuals to their own beliefs. :(
 
If one accepts the premise that we incarnate in the first instance to experience what we can't experience elsewhere then there's no logical reason to reject the possibility we MIGHT want to return.
Though we might want to return, why is it that we must fundamentally forget the reason to which we came?


It depends which source you're taking notice of. In 'Soul Trek' by Julie Gale her channeled communicator explains the structure and function of 'soul-groups' or 'soul-cells'. He says that soul groups can range in number from a small handful to hundreds or more. The members - as with ourselves - are on individual journeys of spiritual discovery. To understand why and how it also applies to all of us one needs to read the whole book.
This creates again more questions than it does answer - Understandably you mentioned I’d have to read the book. However there have also been channeled spirits that deny what other ones confirm so does that mean even they disagree on concepts?


You have so much to learn. :(
The issue still isn’t really addressed, this seems dismissive of a position I expressed. Is it something people really haven’t considered?


You hold so many firm views based on....well let's just say questionable information, personal belief/prejudice and a deep lack of understanding. I've seen it here and elsewhere many times before. Maybe it's time I just left individuals to their own beliefs. :(
As I mentioned earlier, I presented my personal opinion/ perspective, not irrefutable evidence. Just how I feel. Much like other topics, there are for and against but I feel no one pushes against the topic because its just widely accepted.
 

bluebird

Significant Contributor
mtniko7,

I used to call myself a "hopeful agnostic", in that I hoped there was a loving god. I suppose I still do hope so, but I have significantly less faith in the idea now. I do agree that "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in [our] philosophy", and that if there is an afterlife, we will find out about it once we arrive there.

I very much hope you're right about my husband being with me, and waiting for me. I wish I could know that for sure, myself.

I don't think that reincarnation is wrong for everyone, although I'm sure it is wrong for some people. If it does exist, then as long is we always have a choice then I don't have a problem with it -- by which I mean a choice as to whether or not to participate at all, as well as a choice as to the nature of our relationships (i.e., whether we are always the child of our parents, the spouse of our spouse, the sibling of our sibling, etc.). I don't think I would ever want to reincarnate, but if I did choose to do so then I believe I would want to maintain the same relationships with my loved ones, especially with my husband. I don't believe this to be the case, but -- if we are forced to reincarnate, and especially if we are forced to changed roles, then to me that proves that if there is a god, it is not a kind nor loving entity.

I don't believe in the concept of an "oversoul" or "higher self", at least not as a separate being. I do think that if there's an afterlife, we are more aware of the nature of things, both on earth and in that afterlife, than we are while we are stuck her in our bodies on earth. So that it wouldn't be a matter of an "oversoul", but rather of an amalgamation of experiences which together contribute to who a person is -- much as all of our experiences in one life here on earth contribute to who we are in that one life. In any case, if reincarnation does exist, for those who participate in it I don't think they will forget all of their life (lives) experiences, I think those experiences are just part of who they are.

It doesn't seem odd to me that we might incarnate with souls with whom we are close in the afterlife -- people we love. I know that I have met people in this life to whom I have felt instantly and inexplicably close even upon first meeting, and I think that may be because I might have known them in the beforelife/afterlife (if such a thing exists).

I do not believe that we plan our lives before coming here, or at least that we don't plan every detail, or even all of the major things. I think maybe we choose a few of the broader strokes, like maybe gender, maybe our parents, maybe the country in which we're born, maybe the general focus of our life (like being a musician or a lawyer or whatever). But I don't think we plan or choose everything -- how boring would it be if we did?

You said "Also we’d pretty much have to forget our loved ones and friends from here because they’d just be different people after the next life. So in retrospect - the premise of reincarnation actually is oblivion/ true death in my eyes."
Since that is how you feel, then I think you can choose not to participate in the process of reincarnation (again, if such a thing exists at all).

Whether or not reincarnation exists, I do hope you find the partner that you want in this life, someone wonderful for you to love and who loves you. :)
 
I don't think that reincarnation is wrong for everyone, although I'm sure it is wrong for some people. If it does exist, then as long is we always have a choice then I don't have a problem with it -- by which I mean a choice as to whether or not to participate at all, as well as a choice as to the nature of our relationships (i.e., whether we are always the child of our parents, the spouse of our spouse, the sibling of our sibling, etc.). I don't think I would ever want to reincarnate, but if I did choose to do so then I believe I would want to maintain the same relationships with my loved ones, especially with my husband. I don't believe this to be the case, but -- if we are forced to reincarnate, and especially if we are forced to changed roles, then to me that proves that if there is a god, it is not a kind nor loving entity.
That’s what I’m hoping for too. I have read that apparently me MUST incarnate in order to spiritually grow however I’m sure we’d be able to do that over there. We have infinite time after all.
I don't believe in the concept of an "oversoul" or "higher self", at least not as a separate being. I do think that if there's an afterlife, we are more aware of the nature of things, both on earth and in that afterlife, than we are while we are stuck her in our bodies on earth. So that it wouldn't be a matter of an "oversoul", but rather of an amalgamation of experiences which together contribute to who a person is -- much as all of our experiences in one life here on earth contribute to who we are in that one life. In any case, if reincarnation does exist, for those who participate in it I don't think they will forget all of their life (lives) experiences, I think those experiences are just part of who they are.
Likewise, Duality of the soul seems strange but also counters near Death Experiences and medium readings as like I said it creates the dynamic of master, puppet. Then we get absorbed back when we die? What’s the point in that? So I think our entire consciousness comes here. I also like the views of Emmanuel Swedenborg and or Fredrick Myers. It states that we come here only a few times in order to find a sense of our self, develop personality, make loving connections and prepare us for what’s to come after. If we were to reincarnate, Myers dictates that we come only a few times (3-6) not hundred or thousands like some new age spiritualists say. These perspectives make alot more logical sense on a fundamental level as opposed to hundreds of ‘experiences’ there isn’t that much to do here on Earth.
You said "Also we’d pretty much have to forget our loved ones and friends from here because they’d just be different people after the next life. So in retrospect - the premise of reincarnation actually is oblivion/ true death in my eyes."
Since that is how you feel, then I think you can choose not to participate in the process of reincarnation (again, if such a thing exists at all).
I think our purpose here is to develop our authentic self and experience all mortal life has to offer. Emotional roller coasters, love, finding passions, interests, sense of humour all that. Much like how in school we find friends, find our interests and develop likes and dislikes. I’d like to believe that if we live a full life here with a broad range of experiences - we won’t want to come back and start all over. Gives life much more purpose and meaning than “This is my 700th life”. I get very anxious and honestly lose will to strive for anything when I read that we come here over 100 or sometimes a 1000 times. Quality > Quantity in my opinion. But of course like much else this is just my viewpoint. I recommend reading about Swedenborg and Myers if you have time in your schedule - Interesting perspectives.
I very much hope you're right about my husband being with me, and waiting for me. I wish I could know that for sure, myself.
I do believe that bonds of love are eternal. Just how I feel my grandfather always with me, I know your husband is always with you
 
I also wanted to clarify incase my perspective has come across differently than how I intended.
All of what I have written was an expression of my thoughts about the topic. I have my own personal reservations about it but I don’t mean to project them onto others at all, I intend to present my thinking with an openess to understand and learn about other perspectives - Hopefully invoking productive conversations.

For arguments sake I also want to clarify that I do think we can choose to incarnate (possibly more than once) but I don’t think it happens as often as what people are made to believe for reasons I mentioned in my other message.
 

bluebird

Significant Contributor
I do not believe that we MUST incarnate in order to spiritually grow. It may perhaps be a way to do so more quickly, I don't know, but regardless -- I believe we have free will and so if reincarnation exists I believe we can choose whether or not to participate in it. I absolutely agree that whether we live one life on earth or many, our entire consciousness comes here.

I know that if there is an afterlife in which my husband does still exist, he still loves me, and I know that I still love him. I am just not able to have faith that there is an afterlife -- I don't know that there isn't such a "place", and certainly I very much hope that there is, I just can't help but doubt. My belief in an afterlife sort of ebbs and flows, wanes and then comes back a bit. Honestly, for me I don't know if there's anything that would make me stop doubting other than my husband coming to me himself, my seeing and/or hearing him.
 

mac

janitor / administrator
Staff member
This conversation has enough material to run several very-different threads and each individual topic deserves separate consideration. Here on ALF all the points here in this thread have been discussed in the past.

In matters of the spirit what I've found most important is getting to the bottom of each point before moving to the next. My approach is that personal ideas and beliefs/prejudices should be set aside and the words of teachers and guides widely acknowledged as authoritative substituted and considered. For example take the evergreen subject of reincarnation. Teacher/guide Silver Birch (3500 years after his final incarnation) said that even among his peers there were some who declared they had never met anyone who had reincarnated - yet for Silver Birch himself reincarnation was indisputable. What makes any incarnate believe they have understanding superior to his? Do you choose the ideas of 20th or 21st century humans over the guidance of spirit guides?

It must be my age because I get frustrated over how little fundamental understanding is evident when seekers opine about subjects which stretch even the most knowledgeable. Ask yourself how you can contemplate reincarnation if you don't understand why we're here in the first place.
 
From what I know about Silver Birch, it was mentioned by James Webster that he wasn't always consistent.. Also other teachers and guides have mentioned that the soul can't be fragmented including some of his peers (as you mentioned). It isn't us humans that opposing the ideas of spiritual entities, they themselves also have differing perspectives, I just happen to read both and chose a perspective that I find is grounded more in logic and reasoning.

Sometimes I've seen reincarnation being used to describe the rebirth of a soul into a higher dimension. Also from a neutral perspective, people are here to discuss and learn, not everyone has done the same amount of delving into said topics as others. So frustration over so called 'fundamental' understanding of topics is a little rash.. do you also mean to imply that I have little fundamental understanding? I can't help but feel that your messages are a little condescending intentional or not :confused:

Similarly, I have seen you mention on the 'ask Carol and Mikey' threads that you disagree with some things Mikey has answered through Carol, does that mean you yourself are questioning the responses of a higher dimensional being? or are you similarly preferring to resonate with one answer over another?
 
I do not believe that we MUST incarnate in order to spiritually grow. It may perhaps be a way to do so more quickly, I don't know, but regardless -- I believe we have free will and so if reincarnation exists I believe we can choose whether or not to participate in it. I absolutely agree that whether we live one life on earth or many, our entire consciousness comes here.

I know that if there is an afterlife in which my husband does still exist, he still loves me, and I know that I still love him. I am just not able to have faith that there is an afterlife -- I don't know that there isn't such a "place", and certainly I very much hope that there is, I just can't help but doubt. My belief in an afterlife sort of ebbs and flows, wanes and then comes back a bit. Honestly, for me I don't know if there's anything that would make me stop doubting other than my husband coming to me himself, my seeing and/or hearing him.
To be honest Bluebird, my belief in an afterlife does come into question a lot, not of it's existence just what it's like.

Free will is the one premise that remains consistent among every forum and thread I've delved into (disregarding some hardcore reddit threads that mention reincarnation purely on a karmic level) as well as the notion of loving relations being eternal.

There are days where I get exhausted about researching and laugh about how sometimes it's just easier to believe there is nothing at the end of all this haha. But we are curious and inquisitive beings to we can't help but wonder what exists beyond our universe.

It would be so cool to be able to communicate with our passed loved ones verbally/ face to face! Other than meditating or through a medium, you'd just have to have faith and believe. Maybe sometimes they show up in your dreams but I'm not sure how you can ask them to or if they can at will. I'd love to talk to my grandpa and see if his garden on the other side is going better than the one he had here on Earth (I'm sure it is).
 

mac

janitor / administrator
Staff member
From what I know about Silver Birch, it was mentioned by James Webster that he wasn't always consistent..
Then you need to factor that in if you feel it's important.


Also other teachers and guides have mentioned that the soul can't be fragmented including some of his peers (as you mentioned). It isn't us humans that opposing the ideas of spiritual entities, they themselves also have differing perspectives, I just happen to read both and chose a perspective that I find is grounded more in logic and reasoning.
There will always be differing perspectives. We should accept the one that works for us individually.

Sometimes I've seen reincarnation being used to describe the rebirth of a soul into a higher dimension.
I like to stick with the simple one, the one most folk (most of the ones I encounter) appear to mean by "reincarnation". They mean a return to this physical world.

Also from a neutral perspective, people are here to discuss and learn, not everyone has done the same amount of delving into said topics as others. So frustration over so called 'fundamental' understanding of topics is a little rash.. do you also mean to imply that I have little fundamental understanding? I can't help but feel that your messages are a little condescending intentional or not.
Registered members - the only ones able to contribute to conversations - come with a range of differing approaches. I call it as I see it and the various questions you're posing suggest you don't have a grasp of the fundamentals. At one time I would not convey my feelings.

Similarly, I have seen you mention on the 'ask Carol and Mikey' threads that you disagree with some things Mikey has answered through Carol, does that mean you yourself are questioning the responses of a higher dimensional being? or are you similarly preferring to resonate with one answer over another?
May I explain my approach? When the Carol and Mikey thread began - through my pushing for one - I was perfectly happy to tell anyone that I accepted whatever he told us about what he experienced after his apparently premature passing. That was irrefutable - how he found things was how it was for him - period. However if I saw weakness or inconsistency in other matters, I would question and challenge - I still do that here and elsewhere. The C&M Q&A is a long thread that ran over a long time and we saw matters differently on very, very few occasions - but there were some and I didn't defer unless I was proven wrong.

So yes I myself questioned the responses "....of a higher dimensional being." You said above "It isn't us humans opposing the ideas of spiritual entities, they themselves also have differing perspectives." But in my case IT IS this human opposing - challenging - the ideas of spiritual entities......

Remember the old saying "Spirit loves an enquiring mind."? Or Silver Birch's advice - don't accept it just because I told you. Accept only what appeals to your reason. (words to that effect)
 
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