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Your Christmas Gift

Discussion in 'Spiritual Growth & Development' started by RobertaGrimes, Dec 24, 2011.

  1. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    On Sunday we celebrate the greatest gift in all of human history! And it is only now – two millennia later – that we can appreciate the magnitude of that gift.

    Having spent decades studying nearly 200 years of abundant and consistent afterlife evidence, I can tell you that there is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus was born to save us from our sins. Instead, the afterlife evidence indicates that it doesn’t matter what religion you follow in life – or whether you follow any religion. Instead, what matters is whether you have lived your life in close adherence to the teachings of the Man who was born to us that holy night… just as He Himself tells us in the Gospels:

    “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?” (LK 6:46)

    “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (JN 8:31-32)

    There is no better short course in perfect living than the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. If you want to make a New Year’s resolution, I urge you to make 2012 the year when you buy yourself a Bible that prints the words of Jesus in red and then read those perfect Gospel words every week or two until next Christmas (when, incidentally, the world will still be here). I promise you: your whole life will change!

    While the wisdom of Jesus alone should be enough to prove His divine origin, we need more. We live in a cynical age. We need to know that the Man born in Bethlehem is in fact a powerful eternal being. We need proof! And now we have that proof.

    The Shroud of Turin is real!

    The Shroud of Turin Research Project in the late seventies produced detailed and compelling evidence that the Shroud is the actual burial cloth of a First Century man who had suffered the same injuries which led to the death of Jesus on the Cross.

    But the Shroud Project was not able to determine what had produced the amazing image that is visible only in enhanced negative photographs of the Shroud. Scientists working on the Project could conclude only that it was a scorch of some kind. So Italian scientists set about trying to duplicate the scorch. And just now, conveniently right before Christmas, they have announced that they have been able to produce something like the Shroud’s scorch only by subjecting linen to bursts of ultra violet laser light so intense that even today we lack the ability to produce UV light sufficiently strong to duplicate the quality of the Shroud’s scorch.

    To make sure that we understand what these results mean, Luigi Garlaschelli, a professor of chemistry at Pavia University, told The Independent, a British newspaper: "The implications are... that the image was formed by a burst of UV energy so intense it could only have been supernatural.”

    Jesus is a powerful eternal being who chose to be born not for His own advancement – clearly, He had no need for further learning. But He chose to be born to the world’s first real monotheists so He could teach them personally and try to elevate their understanding. He even chose to suffer a horrific public death so everyone would know that He had become stone-cold, flat dead… so then He could rise from the dead three days later: “Ta-da! Do you see? Death is just an illusion!” And the process of re-animating that dead body produced such intense spiritual light that we still can see the image of it today.

    The life of Jesus two thousand years ago is the greatest gift that you ever will receive. Jesus is real. Like Him, you are eternal. When you really ponder all of this, you will find that nothing in your life is the same.

    Merry Christmas, dear friends!
  2. mokandi

    mokandi New Member

    Thank you.
  3. Carol and Mikey

    Carol and Mikey Golden Hearts

    Mikey tells me it's just the facts! Roberta is right on! Jesus came to teach! And just know, Jesus is "flippin AWESOME!"
    Merry Christmas from Mikey!
  4. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Re-animating a body from which the soul/spirit has departed was no more in the power of the Nazarene than it is in anyone else's power.... If that were otherwise it would make a nonsense of the principle of cause-and-effect.

    Death is marked by the withdrawal of the spirit as the so-called silver cord is severed. If the story of Jesus and the resurrection have any authenticity, it's because it wasn't his death but rather his near death.....

    Isn't that something to do with Easter, though - not Christmas? ;)
  5. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Hello Mac! Welcome, and thank you for doing so much posting right after you first joined us - I wish more new members would jump in this way!

    To answer your questions:

    1) You are right in saying that death is the severing of the silver cord, and it is irrevocable. Therefore near-death experiences - where the cord remains intact - do not involve death at all! You are right in saying that "Re-animating a body from which the soul/spirit has departed" is beyond anyone's power - but that is the point, dear friend. To have re-animated a stone-cold, flat-dead body would have taken extraordinary energy of a kind that we frankly cannot imagine. To revive an NDE-er doesn't take energy - it happens on its own. But to have re-animated the body of Jesus three days dead took spiritual energy (which is apparently something like UV energy) that was strong enough to also imprint the image of that event on the Shroud of Turin as a negative image that people could not have discovered (or even imagined) for two millennia thereafter. (It likely took more than energy - I know that. But if Mind conceived of material life to begin with, then Mind likely would know how to produce this trick of re-animating a body for a long enough period of time that Jesus could show Himself to be alive again.)

    2) The true import of the life of Jesus is not Easter, after all. He came as our teacher! His birth was His gift to us, and Easter was only His final lesson. To choose to be born into what He knew would be a difficult life just because He was so eager to educate the whole mass of humankind was an extraordinary gift of perfect love. And it is that gift that we celebrate at Christmas! At Easter, we celebrate that gift again in acknowledgement of Jesus's biggest lesson: Guess what, folks! Life is eternal. Death is an illusion. Ta-da!

    The afterlife evidence overwhelmingly shows us that reality is just consciousness energy - or spiritual energy, if you prefer. Nothing else whatsoever exists! Our minds are all part of eternal Mind, and by Himself Jesus could not have re-animated a corpse. But then again, apparently He never did anything by Himself - the Gospels say that He routinely used the mind-energy of those He cured. And while Jesus could not have re-animated that corpse, Mind energy brought the material universe into being and holds it in being. If it can do that, then Mind-energy could probably re-animate a corpse as well. (The fact that it was an extraordinary re-animation rather than just a near-death experience likely also explains why Jesus couldn't stay around for long - He just did the big reveal and made sure the corpse was seen alive again, and then He got rid of it.)

    I was hoping that someone would ask these questions, dear Mac - if I didn't know better, I would think that I had written your post so I could answer it! Thank you. And if you want to talk about this further - or if you have any other questions - please do post your thoughts. That we have this newly-discovered evidence about the Shroud is a big thing indeed!
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
  6. vic smyth

    vic smyth New Member

    If you read the gospels carefully you'll see that in most of Jesus' appearances after His death those that saw Him did not at first recognize Him. In one of His appearances to his disciples (the eleven) Jesus appeared out of thin air, ate with them, then disappeared "while in their midst". Putting my Christian upbringing behind me and looking at this objectively it seems much more like a ghostly apparition rather than a re-animation of the body. Jesus primary teaching emphasis was focusing our lives on the spiritual realm and how to achieve this realm in the afterlife (and possibly in this life). If Jesus wanted to demonstrate that there is a spiritual realm that we all can enter after our physical deaths, would He come back as a re-animated corpse, or as a spiritual being? This in no way diminishes Jesus' mission in any way.

    This may also be the reason that ACIM has students repeating the mantra "I am not a body, I am free, I am still as God created me." John quotes Jesus as saying, "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the body profits nothing."

    Granted the empty tomb blows my theory to hell, but hey, if the Puzzle that is our life were that easy to solve, would anybody bother even opening the box? When you think you have all the answers, it's time to start reassessing your questions.

    With Lovingkindness (metta),
  7. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

  8. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Hi Vic! Very interesting thoughts here. I do remember though, from reading the Gospels, that a couple of them said that Jesus was among the apostles for forty days. That's an awfully long time for a spirit to manifest itself in the physical world.

    Another problem with the spirit theory is that he was indeed solid after the resurrection. Thomas, for one, was able to touch him. It is possible for a spirit to manifest in a physical way, not just as a visual, but it is exceedingly rare.

    I think that we are too used to seeing things as black and white. For example, just because Jesus was in his body, why couldn't he have appeared out of thin air to a group of apostles? It seems to be that, in order to accommodate him again Jesus's body had to be transformed. I think it is rather likely that the material body was healed and somehow altered, which is why people couldn't recognize him at first. This would also explain why Jesus was able to appear and disappear, and why his tomb was empty, why he could eat physical food, etc.

    It is also possible that, although he undoubtably died, he managed to keep his silver cord intact. This explain why Jesus tells Mary Magdalene not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the Father. There is some evidence that a person can will their silver cord not to break. Sometimes a mother who has a young child will choose, completely of their own volition, to return in order to raise their child. In fact, anyone with an objectively important goal to accomplish on the earth plane may be capable of this. Jesus certainly had an important mission to accomplish.

    So, essentially, this is what I have come to believe happened: Jesus died, in the sense that his body was not functioning in any way. But, his spirit somehow managed to keep the silver cord intact and thus he did not actually enter heaven. During its time in the tomb, his body was also somehow rebuilt and mutated by his spirit so that it could more than the average body. Then he resurrected and met with the apostles, etc. After his forty days with them (or however long it really was), he ascended into heaven because his body was so intertwined with his spirit that it could be taken up along with his spirit.

    There are still many questions. Certainly, this it seems that this would be practically impossible for the average person to pull off. Jesus, however, was not the average person. When you're as advanced as Jesus, I have a hunch that you get to break the "rules" a bit. As Roberta says above, if Mind is able to create the universe and the afterlife, why couldn't Mind break the make an accept ion to the way the universe works?
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2011
  9. Birki

    Birki Member

    Andrew, I think what you say makes a lot of sense. I think this topic was actually discussed recently in another thread too but I'm glad you took the time to write it again. Of course if we want to get picky Yeshua likely wasn't born at this time of year anyway, though of course that is what we celebrate at this time, conveniently right after the solstice. But celebrating both Easter and Christmas at the same time of year probably wouldn't be as much fun.

    And Roberta, I think I will get that Bible this year, though it may not be a red letter version as I got a Kindle for Christmas and I will probably get NIV for Kindle.
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2011
  10. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Hi Birki! You can actually get a red letter Bible for Kindle for $3.99 here. It's the King James Version though. There is a a New International Version here for $1.99, but it got really bad reviews and apparently the red letters don't show up. It's up to you, but I would go with KJV because it is the closest English translation to the original Bible, so what is said makes a lot more sense (to me anyway). The English Standard Version of the Bible (with no red letters) is free here for Kindle, but I personally think it's worth the money to get either NIV or KJV with the red letters.
  11. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

  12. Birki

    Birki Member

    Thanks Andrew, I did check out a few samples and I think I will go with NIV, it makes more sense to me than the other versions. I'm disappointed the red-letter version doesn't work, even on my iPod that can show color. But the red letter NIV is cheaper than the regular NIV, so unless there is a reason not to I think I'll get that one. I just have to load an Amazon gift card I got to my account first. :)
  13. RudeAwakening

    RudeAwakening New Member

    I feel compelled to agree with our new member mac on this one. The resurrection is just one of those things that doesn’t ring true to me. I mean no disrespect to experts and others that are convinced of this and fully admit to knowing nothing about the evidence supporting it. At this point I’m under the assumption that the evidence supporting it would be insufficient to convince me.

    mac also wrote: "I'm a simple fella and suspension of natural laws does not cut it for me.....If the Nazarene had died in the sense we've already established agreement about, then no energy could re-vivify that corpse once the animating spirit had left. But I don't want to become distracted by this discussion as it's not important. Within Christian Spiritualism you may find (in the UK) those who follow this hybrid eligion and you may find they will agree with your premise. I'm not a Christian Spiritualist and Jesus was a teacher, guide, healer, philosopher - not a man who could work magic."
  14. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Hi Roberta! Thanks for the wonderful summary of the facts! I do think that there is no doubt that Jesus died completely (in the bodily sense) and that that fact can be easily proven. I definitely think this isn't a black or white issue though. I find it hard to believe that Jesus came back as an entirely physical being or as an entirely spiritual being.

    No matter how he did it though, I think it's plain that he died, and came back from death. I suppose the small details of how it was done are rather insignificant, in terms of the bigger picture.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2011
  15. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    You're welcome! That sounds like a good choice to me!
  16. Carol and Mikey

    Carol and Mikey Golden Hearts

    Here is what Mikey has to say on this subject:
    Jesus is real. He is Pure Love (God) in Human Form. He came not judging others, but to teach about the importance of love and forgiveness. Jesus is of a very high love level, who came to prove that death is not the end. Jesus is of an "energy" that the human mind cannot comprehend. This "energy" has the "power" of Absolute Love which is infinite. This "energy" is unlimited in it's power. This "Power" can do anything...And Mikey means ANYTHING!!!!!! Miracles are NOT magic. They are events that occur that give a result that change people forever! The Resurrection is an example of this power.
    With Jesus, the silver cord was broken and his body did die. But, Jesus had the energy of Absolute Pure Love to perform the miracle to return in his human body. This occured to prove that life is eternal even after death. In Heaven, Jesus was chosen to perform and carry out this lesson and plan to teach that life is eternal! This is an example of Absolute Pure Love. The "Power" is endless! Mikey says we have no idea what High Level Love can do. Mikey tells me Jesus is now of the Highest Plane of Existance. He truly is one of the Greatest Teachers!
    No one has to believe this. Mikey says it's just the facts!
    Who is Mikey you ask? He is my son in Heaven who tells me this!
    Carol and Mikey "in Spirit"
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2011
  17. RudeAwakening

    RudeAwakening New Member

    Thank you Carol and Mikey for weighing in on this one, I was hoping you would. I can say that I’m giving it more thought, but in no way would I ever bring the resurrection into a conversation with others regarding the after life evidence. I absolutely believe anything is possible, but question why we haven’t seen anything even remotely close to this magnitude in recent history. All these miracles having taken place so long ago doesn’t help our case.

    While I can understand a reluctance to reproduce anything along the lines of a resurrection in modern society, given our ability as a species to panic and create chaos over something of far less magnitude, if a rapid shift is spiritual awareness is the goal of the spirit world, at this point in time, why not produce something with enough punch to make our job a little easier? Surely a few smallish type miracles could get the world buzzing without causing a panic.
  18. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    This makes a lot of sense. I was thinking that perhaps the cord didn't detach, but that was mostly because Jesus said that he hadn't ascended yet. I believe you said somewhere else, Carol, that Mikey had met Jesus, right? That must have been an incredibly experience!
  19. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    I'll tell you what, Awakening - when I eventually die, I'll specifically ask if I could be allowed to do this. :) It sounds like an interesting experience to me, to finally be able to give everyone undeniable proof. But alas, I don't think it would be possible for me. It would take an extremely advanced and enlightened being, akin to Jesus, to be able to resurrect in the physical body and disregard the apparent cord rule.

    I have to say though, I don't think that someone returning to their body would cause much of a stir in spiritual awareness. Sure, the people who actually saw that person return would be forever changed, but most of the world would just assume it was all hearsay and rumors.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2011
  20. RudeAwakening

    RudeAwakening New Member

    Good stuff Andrew. You cracked me up with that.

    I was thinking of something a bit more subtle and wide spread and continuous like cloud apparitions in the skies, the same ones, appearing all over the world to be photographed and airing on TV stations everywhere. A sort of repeatable phenomenon with enough punch to give spiritual awareness a good shove, without making crazy people even crazier. Admittedly it would be difficult to contain the nut jobs and zealots over anything substantial, but it certainly seems worth it given the sad state of the planet.

    And regarding resurrection I submit that the recently deceased Korean dictator suddenly rising from the dead would garner quite a bit of attention. :D
  21. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    "- So, taken together, what does all this tell us? Your interpretation may differ from mine, but I think it is reasonable to infer that Jesus allowed His body to die and His silver cord to separate, and He later re-animated it by the power of His mind which concentrated the power of eternal Mind through His belief-amounting-to-certainty (commonly translated as "faith"). You may read the facts differently, and that doesn't matter. What is important and wonderful is the fact that it really happened!"

    I did say this would be a distraction! But let me respond as objectively as I can...

    I don't do a personal interpretation of anything and I disagree that, quote: "....it is reasonable to infer that Jesus allowed His body to die and His silver cord to separate, and He later re-animated it by the power of His mind which concentrated the power of eternal Mind through His belief-amounting-to-certainty (commonly translated as "faith") That's a personal belief and I don't have personal belief on any such matters.

    I agree, though, that my different "reading" of the facts doesn't matter but your conclusion does matter when it's a conclusion based on personal belief and/or interpretation.

    Whatever the situation it's all historical and only what happens here-and-now has significance for the future.
  22. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I disagree. It's not plain at all that he died and came back from death. All we have are records over 2000 years old on matters which would tax folks equally nowadays. There are few true facts, simply translated reports of the events from folk who may have had little understanding of what was going on. Do we rely on 'em? Not I....

    I don't disagree there was great symbolism in the events, the translations put on 'em at the time. But I live in the now and not in the past. I accept that Christians see matters differently and this is where we're not ever going to agree. But in terms of the so-called afterlife, the name of the website, they have little significance I feel.
  23. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    May I ask if folk on this website are predominantly Christian?
  24. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    No! Dear Mac, while many of us here were raised in Christian backgrounds, most of us are no longer Christian or at least no longer devout. I personally have no religious beliefs, because I only care about the facts. If the Church was aware of what I believe, know, and teach, I would no doubt be promptly excommunicated. :) For example, there is absolutely irrevocable evidence that God is eternally loving and forgiving and didn't demand that Jesus come and rid the world of sin. Also, Jesus is not unique in being the Son of God, because that is who we all our. The lists goes on and on. Furthermore, most western religions (with the exception of Judaism) would not want support what is taught on this website as it contradicts their major beliefs. We've had a couple of devout Christian members join. All they did though was try to convince us that we were wrong, and then left when they failed.

    But my real beef with the Church, most especially the Catholic and Baptist Churches, is that they impede connecting with deceased loved ones and thus they impede the healing of. (There's also the matter of a past life execution by the Church, but that's another story. :)) By telling people that mediums and channelers are satanic, they hurt people's chances of finding solace through communication with the other side. Also, they do nothing to prepare people for death and what comes after. Whether or not you believe that Jesus is the Savior and Son of God makes no difference in where you after death. Treating people with love and kindness is what matters.

    That being said, we follow the words of Jesus himself, since they happen to line up perfectly with modern scientific (and anecdotal) afterlife evidence. In other words, most of the Bible is a bunch of hearsay and hoo-hah, but the words of Jesus are true and told us things two thousand years ago that we are just finding out on our own today. We love and respect Jesus as a man he was - the ultimate teacher who went to great pains (literally) to teach us the truth.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2011
  25. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    OK, Andrew, you're not..... But I think I can see it in one or two postings. I noticed, though, that you say "we" in you last paragraph suggesting you're speaking for more than simply yourself - is that correct? It doesn't much bother me but I've found that there's only so much which can be debated with anyone who's strongly tied to traditional, mainstream teaching. Many of the States we've travelled to feel decidely traditional in their approach to such subjects as we discuss here so I thought I ought to check - I don't want to offend by saying something which someone else holds sacrosanct. In the UK it's probably less of a problem.
  26. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    The Gospels, dear Mac, give fairly accurate accounts of Jesus's life on earth. Sure, the people who wrote the Gospels didn't necessarily understand Jesus fully, but they would have been able to write down his words accurately, which opens them up to us, who can better understand them.

    I agree with you completely when you say that Christians see matters differently! I think they take the Gospels too literally.

    The words of Jesus do have great significance when it comes to the Afterlife though. He came specifically to tell/show us that the afterlife existed and that God was an eternally loving being who would never judge us. It turns out that he was exactly right! That cannot be a coincidence, there are just too many things he is spot-on about. So, it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that Jesus must have known what he was talking about!

    The very reason that Jesus was crucified (rather than dying another way) was to prove that life was eternal. Cruxifiction (the root of the word excruciating, which means essentially out of the cross) is a very slow and public way of death, so there would be doubt among the Romans, Jews, or the Apostles/Women that Jesus had died completely. They would have noticed life and the Roman would have likely kept his body up and hanging there for several hours before taking it down, ensuring that he was dead. There is no way he could have lived.
  27. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Hi Mac! I've been a regular contributor on this website since May and, as a byproduct of that, I've gotten to know a lot of the members here. Most of the people I have talked to are other either not religious or don't adhere devoutly to the doctrines and dogmas of their religions. In any case, what we talk about and teach here is has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

    When you say "But I think I can see it in one or two postings.", do you mean my postings or others'? If they are mine, please point them out if you can because I am curious about what I may have said that could be interpreted as religious. I'm far from it, so it's likely just an example of poor writing skills on my part.
  28. RudeAwakening

    RudeAwakening New Member

    Hi mac, I personally couldn't tell you exactly what a Christian is or define any other religion with anything but possibly contempt. I have great respect for the efforts of the key players on this forum and believe they truly strive to be impartial regarding the evidence and for the most part they succeed.

    I am of the opinion however that when it comes to Jesus, no matter how hard they work at it, complete objectivity is simply not possible for them, anymore than it would be possible for any of us under the same circumstances. If you’ve been loving and worshipping Jesus for 50 years, how could one possibly be totally objective?
  29. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I don't recall who wrote exactly what to give me the impressions I got - I'd have to go back over them again and pick the sections as examples. I've been reading quite a few recently but I do read carefully and as a forum contributor elsewhere for over ten years I'm well used to the feel of many writers. It's what's said and the way it's expressed which can be the giveaways. But that's not important unless you feel it's important - I simply didn't want to tread on others' corns.

    You did write 'we' in the section I quoted earlier, though, so I had wondered if you were representing a group of like-minded individuals?
  30. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    As I'm not a Christian I couldn't tell you exactly what a Christian is either - but I could get very close I suspect. I don't hold any such religions in contempt as you do, however, and I am anxious to avoid inadvertent offence. It's not how I operate....

    I don't understand your sentence: "If you’ve been loving and worshipping Jesus for 50 years, how could one possibly be totally objective?" Would you help with that please?

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