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Why spirit manifestation seems so rare

Discussion in 'General Afterlife Discussions' started by Matty Mo, Feb 26, 2014.

  1. Matty Mo

    Matty Mo New Member

    I decided to open up a new thread on something that was touched upon in the Sam Parnia thread. I've placed a few quotes from that thread which led me to create this thread to get everyone's thoughts.

    I've contemplated this a lot myself. Ive read, or heard testimonies from many people, that claimed to see either passed loved ones or other seemingly solid spirits in front of them. A skeptic would simply write these experiences off as a trick of the brain but some of them are so phenomenal i.e. ravensgate's example, I'm not putting that much stock in the power of our brains to produce these kinds of illusions.

    With that, it seems like when people do tend to see more solid spirits, so to speak, it almost entirely happens to be either by themselves or in small groups. One of the biggest arguments against spirit phenomenon is that there has never been any valid ghost videos or photography taken. Now this is completely subjective as there are many such examples but of course it's all relevant to what an individual will accept as valid. There have also been so many faked photos/videos that many have a hard time believing in any valid visual media as evidence.

    So why is it that we haven't been able to capture many concrete visual spirits? I understand the concept of spiritual vibration so they can slow their vibrations down enough to be seen by the human eye but not so much with things like cameras? Keep in mind that this inquiry is coming from someone who used to love watching shows like Ghost Hunters but I don't bother with them anymore because I just don't trust any television producer to create something without some sort of trickery.

    Just a curious phenomenon that I can't quite grasp. Anyone have any insight or thoughts on this?
     
  2. vic smyth

    vic smyth New Member

    When we play a game, we expect a challenge.

    With Lovingkindness (metta),
    vic's myth
     
  3. It is my understanding that it takes a great deal of energy for a spirit to manifest itself in a physical form. And, in some ways I believe it can make the grieving process either worse or better, depending on the circumstances. Maybe some spirits are afraid of manifesting this way because it could possibly hinder the surviving loved one's spiritual growth. In some cases a person who doesn't believe in an afterlife may question such a vision, and may make them think they are "seeing things." To me there are so many different variables about why this doesn't occur more frequently but if I were to summarize why it would depend on: if they have the energy to manifest, whether or not the living loved one would believe/not question what they saw and take it as a gift, rather than thinking their mind was playing tricks on them. I have seen things that logically have made no sense to me(like objects moving by themselves) but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means my mind can't quite makes sense of it-as it relates to the physical world.
     
  4. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Assuming for the moment that there is an afterlife, and that we go there when we die, then while I agree with you that if a given soul came back to visit a loved one it would in some cases help and in some cases hinder, I think that it would most often help.

    Even if i'm wrong about that, it seems that we can agree that it would help in at least some cases. I KNOW that it would help in my case, because without it there will be no "spiritual growth" on my part nor anything else (no life, no joy, no desire to live, no passion, nothing). Also, I know that my husband knows this about me (if he didn't in life -- though I know he did -- certainly he would now, if he exists in an afterlife). Given that, why has he not appeared to me? He must know that seeing him, talking with him, finding out that he still exists, that he is ok and is still himself, and that we will be together again, would be the only thing that would make me happy. Would I then want to live? No, that will never happen. But seeing and speaking with him, and thus knowing that he is ok and that we will be together again, would make the rest of this miserable life slightly more bearable, and might make me slightly less likely to kill myself.

    The fact that he has not appeared to me, despite all that, and knowing how very much he loves me and has always loved me, makes me worry very much that there is no afterlife, no continued existence, and that those who believe that there is are just deluding themselves. I don't know that to be the case, and I certainly don't want it to be, but I worry that it might be.
     
  5. Bluebird, I dont think spirits have the ability to talk the way we talk, though I think they can communicate through electronics. I don't believe the fact that you haven't seen your husband means he doesn't still exist. He could have appeared to you in a dream(it is much easier for them to communicate this way) and I don't believe it is impossible for you either. Maybe when you visit the medium she can help you think of effective ways of communicating with him. Although I know it will be awhile before you will see her. Meanwhile I know you said it is hard for you to meditate but meditation is a good way to open a door to all kinds of spiritual experiences. Don't "try" to meditate. Just sit still for a few minutes, and let your body relax. Listen to meditation or soothing music if you want. When I meditate I think any thoughts I want, even things people would deem impossible. I once meditated about being on a purple planet! It was very soothing. I don't dispel any thoughts while I meditate but I let unpleasant thoughts go by and I let my self think very pleasant thoughts about anything I want. It raises my vibration. And when you raise your vibration, you make it more likely for communication to happen. Killing yourself will solve nothing, please trust me on that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  6. Matty Mo

    Matty Mo New Member

    Bluebird, you know that everyone cares for you on these forums. However, to believe that everyone who believes in an afterlife is "deluded" just because you haven't received any perceived signs from your husband seems like a rather disdainful attitude.

    I know that we all do our best to support you and your struggles, many times to seemingly no avail. Yet to believe there is absolutely nothing after we die, after all of the information you've read about and shared in on this forum, it really makes me sad. I do so hope that you receive some message(s) from your husband sometime. Yet, other people have found extremely valid reasons to believe in something be it through their own personal experience or other means. We're all in this crazy life together and I really wish you would begin to see this instead of constantly falling back on your own sadness and misery.

    As many have mentioned in previous communications with you, you are trying so hard to receive messages from your husband that it seems like you may be missing so many other signs that aren't directly related to direct communication with him. I wholly admit that I don't know your pain and I will never pretend to.

    I do know that there are people everyday likely reaching out to you, including those on the forums. I know many people who've lost loved ones desperately want to receive signs from those they lost. Perhaps, included in the loving energy that everyone else is attempting to provide you is the absolute essence of your husband's love for you? I continue to wish you healing, bluebird, and I really hope you find some as you may not see it but you are still here for a reason, whether you choose to believe that or not.
     
  7. Matty Mo

    Matty Mo New Member

    What a cop out answer! j/k ;) I do agree somewhat and have to believe those on the other side have to get a chuckle out of things like this often. As Nirvana mentioned, "we're obsessed with physicality here on Earth." So many of us need those sensory perceptions to believe anything is real, when in reality, quantum physics are now proving to us that nothing is real around us as it stands.
     
  8. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Some people have said that they've actually seen and spoken with their dead loved ones, though. If those experiences were real, then it is possible, at least for some souls. I need to see and speak with my husband. I have said "to" him, many times, that he can take any energy he needs from me. He can take all the energy from me, I don't care, but I NEED to know that he is ok and that we will be together again. I do hope the medium is able to relay some messages from my husband that let me know it's him, but that would still not be the same thing as seeing and speaking with my husband, and I truly don't know if it would be sufficient for me.

    Killing myself would solve some things, though I acknowledge it would also cause other problems. But if I killed myself and then found that I still existed after death, I would know that there is an afterlife, and by extension I would know that my husband still exists, and would hopefully be able to be with him. The problems it would cause would be the pain to my family, and the possibility that god or whatever wouldn't "let" me be with my husband.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  9. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    I'm not saying that people who believe in an afterlife are deluded, I'm saying that they might be. I truly don't know if they are or not. I don't know if there is an afterlife or not. I hope there is, I worry there isn't. It doesn't bother me when other people believe in an afterlife -- hell, I envy them, the ones who truly do believe in it. They're lucky to have that faith.

    I have had possible "signs" from my husband. I appreciate them, because they might be from him. But they are not proof, to me, of his continued existence in an afterlife. They might be actual signs from him, or they might be wishful thinking on my part because absolutely nothing is more important to me than my love's continued existence and being with him again.

    I do not believe I am "still here for a reason", and quite honestly, if there is a god and I am here for some reason that s/he has in mind, I don't give a damn about that reason or about what s/he wants from me. I used to care about that possibility, while my husband was alive; I used to want to help people, have a purpose to my life, etc. Not anymore. The absolute kindest thing god could do for me, if there is a god, is to let me die and be with my husband.
     
  10. Matty Mo

    Matty Mo New Member

    Everyone is on their own journey in this life, I do so hope you recapture yours soon, bluebird. I know you don't see it but this world really would be worse off without you. For what it's worth, this coming from a man that knows nothing more about you than the posts you've shared on these forums.
     
  11. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    I appreciate that, Matty Mo, and I do believe you say it sincerely. But it just isn't going to happen. It's not as though my husband was the sole focus of my life or anything -- I also love my family & friends, I am a poet (published, with an MFA, etc.), I have backpacked around Europe, I had hobbies and passions, etc. But always there was the love between me and my husband as the backbone of my life, the heart of my life (along with the love from and for my family). Without him here with me, there is no point to my life. I DO NOT WANT MY LIFE, and that will never change. I don't care if the world would be better, worse, or the same, if I were not here. I only want to be with my husband (and eventually the rest of my family & loved ones). That is literally ALL I care about, and all I ever will care about for however long I am still alive.
     
  12. ravensgate

    ravensgate Active Member

    I very much doubt that I was experiencing a delusion that night. You see, I had no idea who this person was. When my old friend dropped to the ground, my first reaction was to help her, see what was wrong, why she reacted that way. Spiritual manifestations/matters were the last thing on my mind, and there was absolutely no reason to grab a camera or video recorder, lol.

    In my personal experience I have found that communication and manifestations occur when I least expect them, and perhaps it is for the best – for me. I say this because if any type of contact or manifestation happened to me while thinking about a departed one, I’m the person who would explain the experience as wishful thinking, hallucination, etc.

    I helped my friend, the other woman had vanished. It was later, after I was shown a photograph and recognized the young lady in the photograph, that my friend told me that was her daughter who had died a while back – to claim that I was stunned would be a great understatement! In fact, it sort of shook me up a bit, and I’d rather not think about it.
    Months later I asked my friend if it made her feel better to have received this visit from her daughter, and she said that although she had firmly believed it would help her a lot, she now wished it had not happened. Unfortunately for my curiosity she did not elaborate on that statement, and I did not “push” on it.
     
  13. Highlander

    Highlander Member

    ilovelearning, My experience is that spirits DO have the ability to talk to us, clearly, loudly and in plain English. This is exactly what happened to me the time my guide came to me and told me how to cure myself of two auto-immune diseases that several doctors didn't know how to deal with.
     
  14. Do you think this happens just with guides or can any spirit talk?
     
  15. Celera

    Celera Active Member

    It's interesting to me that people would wish such experiences had not happened. I wonder why? If you believe that the young woman was not there for any malevolent purpose, why isn't that a good thing? Why do ghosts and similar phenomena seem creepy and a bit unsettling to many of us, even when we believe that spirit entities are not going to harm us?

    Also, when we talk about whether seeing a deceased loved one would "help" us or not, I think part of the problem is the assumption that

    "help" = "feel less sad"

    I'm not certain this is a valid assumption, considering our goals here are apparently to experience difficulty, not to be relieved of it.
     
  16. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Thank you for elaborating on your experience, ravensgate. Please understand that i'm not saying you (or others who believe in an afterlife) are delusional, I'm saying I think it's possible. but I truly don't mean that to be insulting. I hope you are right, I hope there is an afterlife.

    I know that seeing and speaking with my husband would help me, because at least then I would know that he still exists and that he is ok (assuming that he is ok, in the visit). Assuming he is happy and well, then it certainly couldn't make me feel worse.
     
  17. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Celera,

    Experiencing difficulty may be one of our goals in life, though I don't necessarily accept that as a given -- but I can tell you that having my husband die, especially when he did, is nothing I would ever choose or want to experience, and nothing that my husband would ever want or choose either. I would absolutely feel less sad if I knew that my husband is alive and well in an afterlife, especially if I also knew that I would be with him again. I have zero doubt about that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  18. Highlander

    Highlander Member

    I don't know the answer, but if I were to guess, I would say all guides can visit us and talk to us based solely on how powerful and incredible the one visitation I had was. I have asked many times for additional visits, but so far not had any more.
    When I saw my recently deceased father he did not speak to me.
     
  19. Thanks Highlander. Its nice to know such things are possible.
     
  20. frith

    frith Member

    I don't know if people actually see the dead come back or not and I certainly don't discount the stories I've heard, but I believe its beyond our current ability to understand any of it.

    Take for example the late actor Telly Savalas's ghost story.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axdkv0_kJZQ

    I don't really have any reason to discount his story, but its still so extremely odd. It's so odd that I don't think he could have made it up. Why would a dead guy come back with a still-injured throat? Why help Telly Savalas in this weird manner and not contact his own widow?

    I can only gather that the dead enjoy playing tricks on the living if this is indeed happening.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
  21. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Just because we may not understand 'stuff' ourselves ought we to discount what others may understand?
     
  22. ravensgate

    ravensgate Active Member

    I think (could very well be wrong, of course) the reason the dead man came back with a still-injured voice was to add “credibility” to Mr. Savalas’s story. The paper with his name and phone number on it was part of the sequence of events, imho. Meaning there may be a variety of explanations the dead man could not make contact with his wife, yet wanted her to know he had survived the death of his physical body.
    If something similar had happened to his wife, she may have doubted herself, and/or others may have doubted her (hallucinations, wishful thinking, etc. etc.). Instead, the dead man appeared to Savalas, perhaps knowing (or even “orchestrating”) that Savalas would call that number and speak directly with his wife. Savalas would then tell his wife what the man was wearing and she would confirm the white suit he wore at his funeral. Savalas would have no way of knowing this. Same with the timber of the dead man’s voice; it was like a putting of the pieces together, to “prove” his continuity of existence, but on a different plane. Anyway, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it, lol


     
  23. janef

    janef Moderator

    Mac, I think that is an excellent point to consider. I believe we do learn (or should) from others, for our soul's growth. There is always something to learn or see from a different perspective, considering maybe everyone has a different piece of the puzzle?
     
  24. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    It's good to hear you agree although my point was intended to have a different emphasis....

    Times many I've read members here and elsewhere online declaring that we can't do this or that, we can't know this or that, we can't understand this or that when actually they are referring to their personal inability to do, know or understand matters.
     
  25. janef

    janef Moderator

    When I hear this, to me it means "the human brain cannot comprehend" ...not a referral to personal ability.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
  26. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I always take what's written as what was intended..... Maybe I'm too literal but that's how I write.
     
  27. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    I know that I am one of the people who has said this; I've said something to the effect of "No human being can know for sure if there's a god or an afterlife". And while I do see your point and agree that it sometimes applies, I would like to try to explain what I mean when I make that kind of statement.

    It's sort of related to the way I view it when other people have had what they believe is a visit from a dead loved one -- for some of them, if they were not sure if there was an afterlife before the visit, that visit convinces them that there is an afterlife. That's fine, and I'm genuinely glad for them. However, the visit, and the ensuing belief the experiencer has in the afterlife, are not actually proof of the afterlife. That is -- the visit is enough to convince that individual, to her/him it is sufficient proof. But it is not "across-the-board", undeniable, verifiable proof.

    ok. so -- when this happens, and a person feels that they know there is an afterlife, thanks to the visit they've had from the dead loved one (or as a result of their research into the afterlife, or as a result of being strongly spiritual/religious, or whatever it is that makes them believe in an afterlife), s/he "knows" it within her/himself. That is enough for her/him, but in my opinion it is not necessarily actually knowing. This is really difficult to explain....as an example, take a white supremacist (I am not comparing the morality of an afterlife believer with that of a racist, just trying to explain something). The white supremacist "knows" that white people are superior to black people -- but s/he is clearly wrong. But s/he believes she is right, because s/he is within her/his own belief.

    Ugh. I hope I've been at least sort of clear. Basically, a person can believe that s/he KNOWS something, but it may just be that s/he is so secure or entrenched in her/his belief. Without consistent, repetitive, repeatable proof that's available to everyone/anyone, there's no way to know if s/he is actually right.
     
  28. janef

    janef Moderator

    bluebird.. I disagree with your comparison here. Beliefs are not the same as "knowing". He may believe that.. but it doesn't mean he "knows" it. It is his opinion.. he "believes" it.

    I totally understand that you cannot "know" there is an afterlife, because you have not experienced it. But some people have, and that should not be discounted just because everyone hasn't seen it for themselves. So there are those that still "believe" without knowing for sure, because they have evaluated the evidence. But those who have had these experiences do "know"... not just believe. It has been proven to them, making it a fact that they know.

    So a better example of "knowing" is when an spiritual entity shows up and talks to you in plain english. wow.. how do you explain that away???
     
  29. Celera

    Celera Active Member

    Well, in any specific incident, there are usually a lot of ways to "explain it away" if one is inclined to do so.

    Also, your interpretation of the word "know" doesn't seem to allow for the concept that I might know something and still be mistaken. We can say, for example, that people used to believe the world was flat. That was a belief because they didn't have evidence. But those people would not have said this was just a "belief." From the evidence available to them (mostly just physically looking at their surroundings) the flatness of the earth seemed as obvious to them as the roundness of the earth is to us, who can see pictures from space.

    In this sense, I think that it is reasonable for you to feel that you do not just believe in an afterlife, you know it is there. And bluebird can say, I understand you believe that, but I don't.
     
  30. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    janef and Celera,

    The second paragraph of Celera's response is basically what I was trying to say. People who have had experiences "know", within themselves. That doesn't mean they're actually right (doesn't mean they aren't, either -- which is why I say there's no way to really know). Just because something has been proven to someone, does not necessarily make that thing a fact. As Celera said, the idea of the world being flat was proven to people, and they believed it, they "knew" it. And they were wrong.

    Now I'm not saying that there is no afterlife. I desperately hope that there is.

    Celera, I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence, though (seriously, I'm not being snarky, I don't get what you mean). Do you mean that although you understand what I meant (as expressed in your second paragraph), you disagree with it?
     

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