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what are 3 strongest evidence that make you believe after life does exist?

Discussion in 'Afterlife Evidence' started by dogtree, Jul 21, 2012.

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  1. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Thank you for your wonderful post, dear Ravensgate! You are right, of course: when people choose to be adamantly ignorant, there is no way to educate them. You're right. I know that I am being silly in trying to befriend our new (and stubborn!) member. But since he (I'll call him "he" because he seems to have a he-ish attitude, no offense meant to others of the male persuasion) is being reasonably polite, I hope you will indulge me as I spend another post or two in trying to help him. In answering his questions, perhaps we can help other visitors, too, who have similar questions!

    Dear Whylifeispointless, you have just asked about something which is on the cutting edge of advancing our understanding. I love this question, actually, since while it is not definitively answerable at this point, the afterlife-related evidence contains some rather delicious clues which have the potential to expand (and also boggle) our minds.

    First, let's talk about the why. Based upon the close interaction among 200 years of afterlife-related evidence, quantum physics experiments, and consciousness research, the following things are apparently true:

    1) Only Mind is real. Nothing else exists, but rather everything that you think of as real and solid is something akin to a thought. All is energy! Notwithstanding the current Higgs Boson kerfluffle, there is no solid subatomic particle, but rather even the tiniest subatomic particle is a vortex of energy. All of this is not a biggie, actually; it doesn't change our daily lives. But the evidence for this underlying theory of reality is strong - as any honest quantum physicist will admit - and it seems to me after decades of research than it explains so much that it cannot not be true.

    2) Mind is living, intelligent, and what we would think of as emotional. There is a lot of evidence for this as well, although since our hypothetical quantum physicist willfully limits his own research field he is not aware of it. One day, he will be.

    Now, some corollary points so I can better address your question:

    1) The term "soul" is archaic and misleading. It is a religious term, and as such it has a religiously-loaded definition. Let's use a neutral term, and let's ask instead, "What possesses an eternal mind?"

    2) You cannot reason outward from what you think you know. This is the basic mistake that nearly all skeptics make: you think that what is around you is objectively real and solid, and so you reason outward from it. But you cannot understand the Mind-based reality in which you swim, any more than an intelligent fish could understand water very well. Your perspective is wrong. Please, dear friend, try to follow Descartes's advice, and forget everything that you think you know so you will be able to look around you with fresh eyes!

    3) "What was the first thing which had a soul or afterlife that came from Earth?" is not a question that can be answered. Dear Whylifeispointless, nothing "came from earth!" A smart fish would likely think that everything came from water. He would be wrong. Please don't make his mistake!

    So I hope you won't mind if i reform your question. Let's say instead, "What material thing possesses a mind that lives eternally?" Here are only my preliminary answers, with the proviso that I am am still trying to answer this question, myself:

    1) Even rocks and dirt are made of Mind-energy. They are made of (or by) what we think of as consciousness. Everything is. This does not mean, however, that they have eternal minds. And the evidence strongly suggests that they do not.

    2) Simple living things appear not to have eternal minds. A whole separate wonderful question that could take up an entire thread elsewhere is, "What is life?" Try to chew on that! I used to think that maybe life=mind, but I have abandoned that theory. From single living cells up through insects at least, there does not appear to be any basis for thinking that simpler earth-life has anything eternal about it.

    3) Animals with more organized brains apparently have some form of eternal mind. There is a lot of afterlife-related evidence of this. Not only are there small animals in the Summerland (what you might call heaven), but we are told by upper-level beings that animals have a kind of species-specific "group-soul" (let's call it a "group-mind") to which they return after death. Their mind-energy is eternal, in other words. But they don't experience individuality in the way that humans do.

    4) The point in the evolution of our bodies where human beings first had human-like eternal minds is unclear. Was it at Homo Habilis? Or earlier? Or later? Since time is not real and apparently all of history is happening at once, it probably doesn't matter much. But I can hazard a guess, and I will do that.

    5) We are all eternal beings who choose to live brief lifetimes associated with earth-bodies to help us better learn and grow spiritually. That is the essence of what you are, dear friend, like it or not ;-)! So the earliest human body which had a complex enough brain to have afforded us spiritual learning opportunities would have been the first one to have what you would call a "soul." Simple as that!

    Dear Whylifeispointless, you are asking great questions, but this is a tough way to learn such basic stuff. I strongly suggest that you do some basic reading! If you actually are interested in learning more, you might go to funofdying.com and begin to read from the study guide given there. Your Eternal Self and Quantum Enigma would be a revelation to you!
    dan t and kim like this.
  2. mac

    mac Staff Member

    How I wish I was patient like Roberta! I feel there's little prospect of helping the new member but still she's prepared to try and that is greatly to be admired.

    I think there was a time when I was less impatient than I am now but others have used, and wasted, that patience and there's not much left.... :(

    Time I had a patience transplant from someone! ;) any offers?!
  3. Millie

    Millie New Member

    I think we should be kind to him. We don't know his life or his story. We have been told over and over again that love is all that matters, so let's practice what we preach, right?
  4. There are two things that most everyone will agree on, 1) Matter exists, and 2) consciousness exists. Materialists believe that consciousness emerged from matter. Metaphysicians believe that matter emerged from consciousness. It is impossible to prove or disprove either belief. Different people have different worldviews. Why can't we all just accept that and move on and try to figure out the one thing we probably all want -- how to be kind to each other?

    With Lovingkindness (metta),
  5. I very much agree with Millie and Vic. The evidence is out there and if one wants badly enough to find the truth, they will. We do not have to agree with his views but we do need to respect them. By him coming here tells me there is some interest in this person, he wants to know the truth. It's out there, he's been guided to valuable resources for this evidence so what he chooses to do with the tools he's been given in his choice, his free will.

    Just my thoughts...
  6. I don't believe I've seen anyone being rude to this poster, Millie. I agree that it's wrong, even if we disagree with someone, to treat them poorly. I personally am just not a fan of the way they are coming across, which to me seems flippantly dismissive. As I mentioned in my earlier post, if they opened up a productive dialogue instead of simply refuting points with typical materialistic counterpoints I would be happy to indulge.

    I have yet to see this so if I started responding now I wouldn't bring anything productive to the conversation, and wouldn't be able to show much love, as I'm slightly annoyed with their comments thus far. No one is here to make them change their opinions, but hopefully they change their communication methods. I'll leave this to the much more patient and wonderful posters like Roberta at this time. ;)

    Perhaps they truly are just seeking info and there are many wonderful people here to have dialogues with. Perhaps in time the poster will allow a little more give and take in their dialogue but as of now I'll take a wait and see approach.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  7. Matty Mo, crazier things have happened. ;) We may have a work in progress with our new member. If our new friend is in need of some Spiritual rehab he's certainly come to the right forum.
  8. mac

    mac Staff Member

    I'm all for that but sadly I can't do it - I'm a sod and I know it.... :(
  9. Ravensgate makes good points, some of which I thought of before crafting any responses of my own in this thread. However:

    1. I find the intellectual exercise is helpful in clarifying my own beliefs and questions.

    2. It is always possible that -- maybe not today but someday -- what we say here will have some impact on WLIP's thinking.

    3. I have noticed this forum has a great many more readers than there are regular participants. Whatever WLIP's response may be, there are quite a few people out there who have similar doubts and similar questions, and I hope that the discussion may be of interest and help to them.

    Of course we should be kind, not because it will change WLIP's mind, but because it is how we should be. But kindness is truthful and not always gentle, so mac may be kinder than he gives himself credit for.

    Also, this:

    Materialists believe that consciousness emerged from matter. Metaphysicians believe that matter emerged from consciousness. It is impossible to prove or disprove either belief.

    That is seriously profound, Vic, and helps me with something that has been puzzling me for quite a while, along the lines of WLIP's last post. Thanks!
  10. ravensgate

    ravensgate Regular Contributor

    Lol, I'm with Mac here, I could use a "patience transplant". There was a time when I thought the mere process of aging would bring more patience, but in my case the reverse is true. I'm all for discussing spiritual matters/paranormal with Whylifeispointless, but there's got to be a modicum of give-and-take, and frankly I do not see it with the new member.

    In regards to his comments about the blind people having NDEs, Whylifeispointless states, "Not proof at all. What we know is that the brain will display images with sensory input. If a blind person has their eyes function again, they'll see color because of the electrical signals from the eyes going to the brain. You can have electrical signals from memory of the shape of objects.....".
    The cases of blind people having NDEs in full color refer to people who were born blind and therefore unable to have electrical signals from memory because the memory of the color yellow, red or blue, etc. is absent. These NDEs were experienced by people who did not go blind later in late, but blind since birth.

    In regards to the shoe on the ledge, Whylifeispointless states, " The shoe on the hospital could've been planted by the janitor that was sent up there to look for a shoe. I looked at the roof of the Hartford Hospital on google maps and it seems like most of the roof is inaccessible to walking. The story is not specific on where the shoe was found and could've been made up. Also with many hundreds of thousands of experiences, you'd expect at least a few to be highly unlikely happenings. Many times, doctors will go to great lengths for a patient's physiological health, even if it means sending the janitor to buy a shoe from the shoe store and say that it came from the roof."
    Ok, so I suppose the worn-out look of the shoe and the hole on the side of the shoe were "planted" by some janitor under the order from a doctor? Also, the story IS specific as to where the shoe was found, you just need to read it (as I did) from the person(s) intimately involved in this case, not from some skeptical forum's contributor, where "inconvenient" bits of information often get left out. And lastly, it is a rare instance indeed to find medical personnel who will go to such great lengths for the benefit of a patient's psychological health; unfortunately, we're much more focused on their physiological equilibrium.

    Again, I do wish (sometimes) I had more patience. I'm all for debating, but I'd like to see a bit of light coming from a door in the wall, and frankly I do not see it with this new member. His/her door - to me - appears closed and sealed, and no amount of "evidence" will suffice; therefore I shall quit hitting my head against a brick wall. And if this paints me as an old contakerous fart, so be it.

    Peace to all. Whylifeispointless, I wish you well, and I hope you will answer my question, which I asked in my previous post. Thank you.
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