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Ultimate judgment

Discussion in 'Spiritual Growth & Development' started by Shabse, Dec 12, 2011.

  1. Shabse

    Shabse New Member

    Hi, All,

    After reading these posts, it seems we can agree that life - both in "this world" and in the "next world" are a growth experience. While Annie states:

    "not because anyone is "punishing" them but rather in order to progress, you have to have a high spiritual vibration."

    and Roberta states:

    "People who have chosen to be evil reportedly go through a harrowing period of punishment. That they have judged themselves, been unwilling to forgive themselves, and thereby lowered their rates of vibration until they ended up in the outer darkness levels doesn't change the fact that they are being severely punished for their deeds!"

    we can all agree that souls have the opportunity to advance from one level to another. In fact, Carol and Mikey wrote:

    "These souls then "are placed" according to their ways and actions. Heaven has hundreds of levels or aspects of love. Seven planes with many levels or aspects in each."

    In my original post, I wrote about two things.

    One is that most NDE (or Shared DE) literature indicates that there is a tremendous sense of peace and love as one leaves this plane of existence. The video I referenced (you can find it on YouTube) starts out similarly, but soon moves to a judgment phase that is quite unlike anything Moody writes. It is very frightening. The subject is then given another chance to return and make adjustments in his life, which he eventually does. This meshes with the ideas that (1) repentance can take place on this plane of existence and (2) that there is a "calling to account" in the next world.

    You may be interested to know that in Judaism we also make reference to the Seven levels of heaven (correct number, poor translation). We believe that there are myriad levels (within the seven) through which the soul advances in its ever greater closeness to God. In fact, on the yearly anniversary of the date of death (yahrzeit in Yiddish) we often "toast" the departed soul and wish it an "aliyah" (advancement of level). So we seem to agree on that point.

    The second item I pointed out is that there must be an ultimate justice. The Torah (Five Books of Moses) makes quite clear in several locations that we have a choice between "life and death, good and evil." (One example: Deuteronomy 30:15-20) If I understand you correctly, while there is ultimate justice, the soul has the opportunity to advance in "Heaven" and learn from/about its misdeeds. This is consistent with the belief that there is no "eternal damnation." Judaism does not preach that there is eternal damnation, but that there is an opportunity to "repair" in the "next world." So I guess we agree there, too. In fact, according to one belief within Judaism, the "punishment," if you will, results from "life review." The embarrassment of comparing what one accomplished to what one could have achieved potentially is a source of tremendous pain to the soul.

    However, we do part ways when it comes to complete, malevolent evil. The Talmud makes reference to individuals for whom there is no eternal bliss of any kind. The Torah (see Exodus 17:14-16) states that God Himself swears by His throne that there is an ongoing battle with Amalek (a nation that embodies evil) in every generation and that Amalek must be obliterated. Thus, when referencing Stalin, Hitler, and Mao who were responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent men, women and children, my intent is to underscore that there are some (rare) individuals whose evil is so great that it is beyond repair. This may raise another question as to whether they were souls at all or some other type of being, but I'd rather not go there.

    Thank you for taking the time to reply to my original post. While we may agree or disagree on a variety of points, I believe we can all agree that a life lived by standards or decency, morality and abiding love of God and fellow human beings is a the kind of life that makes our earthly journey eternally worthwhile.


  2. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Hi Shabse! It is my understanding that no one is really evil, just misguided. You mention Hitler. There is anecdotal evidence that he has made it to the afterlife and is making progress. As Roberta says above, we judge ourselves, and that's exactly what likely happened with him. His life review would not have been an easy one, since he would have to experience the grief, fear, pain, and suffering of millions of people. I have read though that, because he had soldiers carry out most of his horrible deeds rather than doing them directly, he found it somewhat easier to forgive himself than the actual Nazi soldiers. It appears that Hitler chose to incarnate on earth and experience a life without love. It's hard to tell where he would be right now, especially since time is rather irrelevant there, but he will eventually recover from this horrendous lifetime and incarnate again, hopefully making more progress.

    The Yiddish word yahrzeit is very interesting, by the way! It is pronounced exactly like the German Jahrzeit, which means "season", but literally translates as "year's time".
  3. Shabse

    Shabse New Member

    Hi, Andrew,

    Last things, first. Yiddish is a mixture of Hebrew, German and the language of whatever Eastern European country the speaker lived in. Thus, there is a Polish Yiddish, a Russian Yiddish, a Hungarian Yiddish, etc. The various dialects are understood by most Yiddish speakers. At all events, because of it's German base, it is not surprising that the two words are the same.

    Insofar as Hitler is concerned, I am not arguing that he doesn't have some form of afterlife. My contention is that for one who caused so much death, destruction and pain, his eternity would reflect his life. I am not disputing what you read about his soldiers carrying out his orders. However, being a cause of evil is at least as bad as evil itself. In Jewish lore, we speak of "the one who causes good to be done is greater than the one who actually does the good deed." The opposite is true, too.

    At the same time, I would like to point out another idea from Jewish tradition. (I realize that this site does not promote religious discussion and I am certainly not trying to proselytize - I am just offering an idea from a different point of view). In the fourth century before the common era, a wicked individual tried to have the world's Jewish population destroyed. His name was Haman, and the story of his plot and its eventual failure is written in the book of Esther. The Talmud tells us that his descendants became some of the foremost scholars of the Jewish Talmud. So while I'm not agreeing with the idea that an evil person can "come back" as a righteous person (nor do I dispute that idea), evil people can sometimes be the root of good.

    Be well,

  4. Shabse, I really enjoyed reading your point of view! Thank-you for sharing.

    With Lovingkindness (metta),
  5. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Thanks for the info about Yiddish, Shabse! I suppose there are likely countless examples of Yiddish and German words that are cognates.

    As for Hitler, the evidence seems to tell us that there is no permanent place to which we go after death. Just as on earth, we continue to learn and grow until we are perfect, as God is perfect, at which point our growth is finished and we become God. This ultimate divinity, being a part of God, is not only everyone's destiny, but it is also everyone's roots. If God were a giant door, we would be little splinters that broke off the door. So we all, even Hitler, will return to that perfect bliss and love one day. But don't worry, he will have to learn to forgive himself for all the murders he committed (either directly or indirectly). That will not be an easy process, it will take a lot of work and grief on his part, but eventually he will forgive himself and move on with his eternal life. Time is irrelevant to the process which is why I use the future tense.

    You see, whilst on earth, we are all imperfect - we have an ego and the problems that come with it (selfishness, egoism, impatience, etc.), but our natural form is free of all that. This rule applies to the best of people and the worst as well. We are all perfect because he are made of God, and God is perfect.

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