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Ultimate judgment

Discussion in 'Spiritual Growth & Development' started by Shabse, Dec 12, 2011.

  1. Shabse

    Shabse New Member

    I read Dr. Moody's book - Glimpses of Eternity. It was both uplifting and comforting. However, all the after-life discussions raise one central question.

    Life is not fair - there is good and evil in the world. The righteous sometimes suffer and evil sometimes prosper. Judaism teaches - and I believe most of the world's religions teach - that in the end there is an ultimate justice. This means that in the big picture, individuals must account for their deeds. If there is no justice, then life - and religious faith - is a lie.

    Yet in all the literature about NDEs and ADC, there is little, if any discussion about this. On the other hand there is one YouTube about an NDE experienced by a man in Tel Aviv who was as secular (non-practicing) a Jew as they come. The NDE is quite frightening as the man discusses not only his own facing judgments for his misdeeds, but experiencing other souls in pain as a result of wrongdoing. Judaism teaches that there is a time of judgment, a time of "repair," if you will, in the World of Truth, and, ultimately an eternal reward for the good achieved in this life. Incidentally, the man in the YouTube video eventually became a practicing Jew, though not immediately after his NDE.

    Also, I cannot accept for a moment that truly evil people (Stalin, Hitler and Mao come to mind) earn the kind of peace and love described in Moody's books or on Afterlifeforums. The Torah (Five Books of Moses), as well as some of the books of the Prophets, are quite clear that evil deeds have consequences.

    Also, in looking at a few post on on other threads, there are statements about God in the Jewish Bible that are totally inaccurate. Specifically there are statements regarding the Binding of Isaac and the Ten Plagues that are way off base. I believe the misunderstandings arise from people reading the Bible in any language but Hebrew.
    Hebrew has multiple layers of meaning within each letter (let alone words, phrases and sentences) that cannot be captured in ANY translation, let alone English. All translations lead to gross misunderstandings of the text.

    For example, there was one reference to Moses coming down from Mount Sinai with white hair. There's no reference to that whatsoever in either Exodus or Deuteronomy. In fact, in Deuteronomy, the Torah speaks of Moses on the last day of his life and describes him as still possessing a youthful physicality.

    By the same token, other gross misrepresentations of Scripture occur because the readers are using translations that corrupt the original intent of the verses. If the Bible is to be used as a source of information, one must understand the text the way it was written - itself a difficult task.
  2. Carol and Mikey

    Carol and Mikey Golden Hearts

    Mikey tells me that we absolutely are responsible for our actions here and that nothing goes unnoticed! When we pass we have a life review. This review occurs with "High Loving Souls" who will point out to us our non-loving ways if we "don't seem to see them." With some souls, their ego continues at their life review. They don't see how hurtful they have been. This does NOT give them a "pass" . These Higher Loving Souls teach and show them why what they did was hurtful, etc. These souls then "are placed" according to their ways and actions. Heaven has hundreds of levels or aspects of love. Seven planes with many levels or aspects in each. It is all based on love and forgiveness. These souls are guided and worked with. Teaching takes place. Because life is eternal, they can always improve if they so wish. But we absolutely are responsible for our actions! Mikey says that the higher levels of Heaven are glorious, but the lower levels or aspects are not.
    Carol and Mikey "in Spirit"
  3. Annie

    Annie Member

    What Mikey says rings true as always. Because I was just reading I think either a blog or article on people who do bad things in their lives sometimes kind of go through a "boot camp" where higher leveled spirits, like Carol and Mikey say, tell them why what they did was wrong and how to improve themselves. It's done in a nonjudgmental and loving way though. These people might even end up kind of reliving what they put others through as many times as they need to in order to learn. Once they forgive themselves and change then I think they can move onto the higher levels.

    I agree that sometimes it seems unfair that you can commit all kinds of terrible acts in life and end up in the same place as Jesus, but the truth is a lot of those souls have to earn it...not because anyone is "punishing" them but rather in order to progress, you have to have a high spiritual vibration. People full of hatred and negativity have a very low vibration and might end up in the lower levels of the afterlife until they can forgive themselves and learn to love.
  4. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Wonderful response, dear Carol and Mikey, as always! It astonishes me to read your posts and see how accurate they are, in every detail - they all agree with and expand upon our already vast body of afterlife literature. You really do have an extraordinary gift, and you are a great blessing to us here!

    Shabse, my dear wonderful friend, I understand how you feel. I felt the same way when I first began to understand what the afterlife evidence tells us: I didn't want there to be no ultimate justice! Somehow that seemed to me to be blurring the distinction between good and evil. But as I came to better understand what the evidence suggests is going on, it made enough sense to me that I began to trust it. And now I am confident that it is true, but it did take time! Here is what nearly 200 years of abundant and consistent evidence indicates:

    1) God is infinitely powerful and perfectly loving. Just as you love all your beautiful sons, so God loves each of us. No matter what a son did, nothing could separate him from your love, and so it is with God: we live in love eternally.

    2) There is indeed a judgment awaiting each of us. Dead folks who have communicated with us have been reluctant to talk about it in detail - perhaps because it is such an intense and embarrassing experience - but we have a good general idea of what it involves. One of the great things about Mikey's response just above is that he gives us more detail about the process - the "High Loving Souls" and the remedial efforts made - which are consistent with the rest of the evidence but are rarely mentioned by the dead.

    3) People who have chosen to be evil reportedly go through a harrowing period of punishment. That they have judged themselves, been unwilling to forgive themselves, and thereby lowered their rates of vibration until they ended up in the outer darkness levels doesn't change the fact that they are being severely punished for their deeds!

    4) We are eternal beings, and in eternity every one of us advances to spiritual perfection and returns to God. I wish we knew more about the details of this process, but we are told repeatedly that the punishment levels are full of advanced beings trying to reach and comfort and educate each lost soul. Every one of them will eventually be rescued! I have never seen a hint anywhere that there is ultimate condemnation for any of us, no matter what we may have done.

    Remember that this is not "real life." It is just school, and nothing that happens here is real in any ultimate sense. When we graduate from here and return to real life, the question apparently is whether or not we have learned from the lesson plan that we ourselves designed - as Mikey says above, it is learning and growth which are the real focus of our life review and judgment. But this is not real, dear friend. For me, that makes the lack of an ultimate condemnation for evildoers easier to bear.

    Each religion is a separate path meant to teach us how to advance spiritually. They do this more or less well, of course, and even the effective ones are better for some folks than for others; but all the world's great religions seem to share a grounding in God's perfect truth. Some religions - like your own - offer more than spiritual teaching, but are instead a whole spiritual way of life, and that seems to me to be a great advantage. As is true of no brand of Christianity (except perhaps for Catholics in enclosed religious orders), Orthodox Judaism governs every significant aspect of a believer's life in ways which are so satisfying for the believer that this ancient faith has persisted nearly unchanged through the most horrendous persecutions and is as vibrant as ever today. That is amazing and wonderful, dear Shabse! And your book, Zayis Ra-anan, is fun to read in part for its glimpse into your richly ordered life. Big hug, dear friend! As your son Sholom is showing you and all of us, God's love is more wondrous and perfect than any of our religions has imagined!
  5. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Oops - I was writing while you were posting, dear Annie! Wonderful comments, as always ;-).
  6. Shabse

    Shabse New Member

    Hi, All,

    After reading these posts, it seems we can agree that life - both in "this world" and in the "next world" are a growth experience. While Annie states:

    "not because anyone is "punishing" them but rather in order to progress, you have to have a high spiritual vibration."

    and Roberta states:

    "People who have chosen to be evil reportedly go through a harrowing period of punishment. That they have judged themselves, been unwilling to forgive themselves, and thereby lowered their rates of vibration until they ended up in the outer darkness levels doesn't change the fact that they are being severely punished for their deeds!"

    we can all agree that souls have the opportunity to advance from one level to another. In fact, Carol and Mikey wrote:

    "These souls then "are placed" according to their ways and actions. Heaven has hundreds of levels or aspects of love. Seven planes with many levels or aspects in each."

    In my original post, I wrote about two things.

    One is that most NDE (or Shared DE) literature indicates that there is a tremendous sense of peace and love as one leaves this plane of existence. The video I referenced (you can find it on YouTube) starts out similarly, but soon moves to a judgment phase that is quite unlike anything Moody writes. It is very frightening. The subject is then given another chance to return and make adjustments in his life, which he eventually does. This meshes with the ideas that (1) repentance can take place on this plane of existence and (2) that there is a "calling to account" in the next world.

    You may be interested to know that in Judaism we also make reference to the Seven levels of heaven (correct number, poor translation). We believe that there are myriad levels (within the seven) through which the soul advances in its ever greater closeness to God. In fact, on the yearly anniversary of the date of death (yahrzeit in Yiddish) we often "toast" the departed soul and wish it an "aliyah" (advancement of level). So we seem to agree on that point.

    The second item I pointed out is that there must be an ultimate justice. The Torah (Five Books of Moses) makes quite clear in several locations that we have a choice between "life and death, good and evil." (One example: Deuteronomy 30:15-20) If I understand you correctly, while there is ultimate justice, the soul has the opportunity to advance in "Heaven" and learn from/about its misdeeds. This is consistent with the belief that there is no "eternal damnation." Judaism does not preach that there is eternal damnation, but that there is an opportunity to "repair" in the "next world." So I guess we agree there, too. In fact, according to one belief within Judaism, the "punishment," if you will, results from "life review." The embarrassment of comparing what one accomplished to what one could have achieved potentially is a source of tremendous pain to the soul.

    However, we do part ways when it comes to complete, malevolent evil. The Talmud makes reference to individuals for whom there is no eternal bliss of any kind. The Torah (see Exodus 17:14-16) states that God Himself swears by His throne that there is an ongoing battle with Amalek (a nation that embodies evil) in every generation and that Amalek must be obliterated. Thus, when referencing Stalin, Hitler, and Mao who were responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent men, women and children, my intent is to underscore that there are some (rare) individuals whose evil is so great that it is beyond repair. This may raise another question as to whether they were souls at all or some other type of being, but I'd rather not go there.

    Thank you for taking the time to reply to my original post. While we may agree or disagree on a variety of points, I believe we can all agree that a life lived by standards or decency, morality and abiding love of God and fellow human beings is a the kind of life that makes our earthly journey eternally worthwhile.


  7. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Hi Shabse! It is my understanding that no one is really evil, just misguided. You mention Hitler. There is anecdotal evidence that he has made it to the afterlife and is making progress. As Roberta says above, we judge ourselves, and that's exactly what likely happened with him. His life review would not have been an easy one, since he would have to experience the grief, fear, pain, and suffering of millions of people. I have read though that, because he had soldiers carry out most of his horrible deeds rather than doing them directly, he found it somewhat easier to forgive himself than the actual Nazi soldiers. It appears that Hitler chose to incarnate on earth and experience a life without love. It's hard to tell where he would be right now, especially since time is rather irrelevant there, but he will eventually recover from this horrendous lifetime and incarnate again, hopefully making more progress.

    The Yiddish word yahrzeit is very interesting, by the way! It is pronounced exactly like the German Jahrzeit, which means "season", but literally translates as "year's time".
  8. Shabse

    Shabse New Member

    Hi, Andrew,

    Last things, first. Yiddish is a mixture of Hebrew, German and the language of whatever Eastern European country the speaker lived in. Thus, there is a Polish Yiddish, a Russian Yiddish, a Hungarian Yiddish, etc. The various dialects are understood by most Yiddish speakers. At all events, because of it's German base, it is not surprising that the two words are the same.

    Insofar as Hitler is concerned, I am not arguing that he doesn't have some form of afterlife. My contention is that for one who caused so much death, destruction and pain, his eternity would reflect his life. I am not disputing what you read about his soldiers carrying out his orders. However, being a cause of evil is at least as bad as evil itself. In Jewish lore, we speak of "the one who causes good to be done is greater than the one who actually does the good deed." The opposite is true, too.

    At the same time, I would like to point out another idea from Jewish tradition. (I realize that this site does not promote religious discussion and I am certainly not trying to proselytize - I am just offering an idea from a different point of view). In the fourth century before the common era, a wicked individual tried to have the world's Jewish population destroyed. His name was Haman, and the story of his plot and its eventual failure is written in the book of Esther. The Talmud tells us that his descendants became some of the foremost scholars of the Jewish Talmud. So while I'm not agreeing with the idea that an evil person can "come back" as a righteous person (nor do I dispute that idea), evil people can sometimes be the root of good.

    Be well,

  9. Shabse, I really enjoyed reading your point of view! Thank-you for sharing.

    With Lovingkindness (metta),
  10. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Thanks for the info about Yiddish, Shabse! I suppose there are likely countless examples of Yiddish and German words that are cognates.

    As for Hitler, the evidence seems to tell us that there is no permanent place to which we go after death. Just as on earth, we continue to learn and grow until we are perfect, as God is perfect, at which point our growth is finished and we become God. This ultimate divinity, being a part of God, is not only everyone's destiny, but it is also everyone's roots. If God were a giant door, we would be little splinters that broke off the door. So we all, even Hitler, will return to that perfect bliss and love one day. But don't worry, he will have to learn to forgive himself for all the murders he committed (either directly or indirectly). That will not be an easy process, it will take a lot of work and grief on his part, but eventually he will forgive himself and move on with his eternal life. Time is irrelevant to the process which is why I use the future tense.

    You see, whilst on earth, we are all imperfect - we have an ego and the problems that come with it (selfishness, egoism, impatience, etc.), but our natural form is free of all that. This rule applies to the best of people and the worst as well. We are all perfect because he are made of God, and God is perfect.
  11. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Wonderful thread, dear friends! And I think that perhaps everyone is right. We are told by upper-level beings that our earthbound kind of black-and-white thinking really doesn't apply in the greater reality, so (for example) Shabse's beautifully expressed views based in Jewish teachings and Andrew's great evidence-based points are probably in harmony after all ;-).

    I want to add, dear Shabse, that it is wonderful of you to share your Judaism-based teachings here. It's so good to know all of this! Many people think that Judaism doesn't talk about (or even believe in) an afterlife, when in fact there are rich and complex ancient teachings that are for the most part not inconsistent with the afterlife evidence. And Christian readers need to remember that in fact Jesus shared your religion. At root, indeed, we all are one!
  12. There's a terrific Swedish film called As It Is In Heaven. I recommend it. It's about a composer and orchestra conductor who's goal it is in life to open the hearts of people - to help them to transform. And he goes back to the small village he grew up in and under an assumed name volunteers to take over the church choir and teach people to sing honestly and from the heart. Some people, notably the legalistic minister of the church, become threatened by this. There's a scene where the wife of the preacher, who's been repressed by her husband, sees the light and has it out with her husband. She tells him that what he's been teaching is wrong - that God doesn't forgive because God doesn't judge in the first place. It's the church that judges and forgives - it teaches sin with one hand and forgiveness with the other hand. She goes on to tell him that there is no sin to forgive - it's just a way of enslaving people with the fear of judgement and retribution/punishment...especially in the afterlife. I think that's correct.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2012
  13. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    My husband and I watched this movie on Netflix last evening, on wonderful Gypsy's recommendation. I agree - it's great! It teaches all the right lessons, it's wonderfully acted and directed, and the characters live on in your mind. There are very few movies that both my shoot-em-up, no-girlie-flicks-please husband and I can agree that we both enjoyed, and this was one of them - highly recommended!!
  14. Birki

    Birki Member

    Thanks GypsyBlue and Roberta for the movie rec - glad to know it is on Netflix.
  15. Forgiving others can be highly liberating. Forgiving yourself, on the other hand, is one of the hardest things to do. I personally don't think it matters if it happens in this life or the next. Either way, when you open your eyes to negative things you have done in your life (no matter how insignificant they may seem), finding a way to forgive yourself is a very difficult task. You may feel that it's almost a cop-op to forgive yourself, because you feel you need to learn some lesson from what you have done to ensure it doesn't happen again. Or you feel you need to be actually punished for what you have done. You just don't feel as though you deserve to be forgiven by yourself or anyone.

    So if there is a lesson to be taken from this, perhaps it's that there is no better time than the present to open your eyes to how you've lived and how you can improve, not only for yourself but for others.
  16. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Dear AllieMarie, I agree with you completely! In fact, the evidence is pretty compelling that learning to forgive ourselves is a primary reason for our earthly lives - it is the most difficult, but also the most important thing that we ever will do. In my experience, forgiving ourselves is much easier - indeed, it is even possible - if we first learn how to forgive others. No matter what they do, no matter how we feel about them, our task is to learn to forgive everyone else automatically and completely. As Jesus says, "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." (LK 6:37) Great insight - thank you ;-)!
  17. In Freudian terms the inner critic or judge is part of the Super Ego. It's a normal part of every human mind. We also call it our conscience.

    (Con Science...isn't that interesting? As if we con ourselves into believing thoughts about ourselves that we, through scientific observation, know are not true.)

    I'm more accepting of my inner critic or inner judge than I used to be but I still don't like it very much. It sometimes keeps me from being spontaneous and keeps me fearful of being ridiculed or laughed at. I got a lot of that growing up.

    But it's just mind. Just thought. So I try not to pile on thought after thought after thought when my inner judge is active. I cut the story short if I can rather than letting it run on and on in auto-pilot mode. I try not to feed it.

    There's a Native American story I find helpful to keep in mind.

    A grandfather or grandmother was teaching his/her grandson/granddaughter about life:

    "We each have two wolves doing battle inside us. One is a vicious, fearful, judgemental and angry wolf. The other is a courageous, encouraging, loving and wise wolf."

    The child asked: "Which one will win?"

    The answer given was: "Whichever one we feed the most."
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  18. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Thank you for sharing that story, dear wonderful Gypsy! I love it, and I love it especially because it is advanced teaching put so simply that everyone immediately understands it ;-).
  19. When it comes to apologies and forgiveness (I am speaking of those in this life rather than the next life), do you necessarily have to be standing in front of someone to forgive or apologize in order to improve? For example, if there is someone you have wronged in the past and your want to apologize to them but have no contact with them and don't know where they are, is it still possible to apologize to them in your heart? Sometimes we have to let people go in our lives because it's no possible or positive- for many reasons- to keep in contact with them. I think that apologizing to someone else is positive because then at least they know you're thinking of them and the wrong you caused, but sometimes trying to apologize can backfire too.

    There is a person I received an email from this morning, someone I hadn't spoken to in a long time. And while I welcomed the communication, for some reason the idea of speaking with him filled me with such negative emotions. I figured out that it's probably all on me and I need to be able to let go of certain things that happened years ago. But I don't look forward to keeping in contact with him. And I find that upsetting.
  20. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Dear AllieMarie, we are supposed to be kind but we are not expected to be doormats ;-). If you don't want to be in contact with someone, then you can politely decline that contact. And if you don't feel comfortable apologizing to someone in person, then you can of course apologize in your heart. Reality is not legalistic! Actually, forgiving people is more important than asking their forgiveness - and if you do good forgiveness work, you are likely to feel forgiven yourself. Simply hold in your mind one by one a clear image of someone with whom you feel any sort of discord or stress, and to each in your mind say, "You are Christ, pure and innocent. All is forgiven and released." And mean it! Then move on to the next such face. Do this once every day for a week or two, and you should find your stressful feelings associated with these people lessening considerably. Good luck with this, dear friend!

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