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Thomas Jefferson's views on Jesus

Discussion in 'Spiritual Growth & Development' started by Goldie, Jun 4, 2017.

  1. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Member

    The idea that the Council of Nicaea edited the Bible is, I think, a common urban legend. If you have a source for the claim I'd be interested to see it. In fact, even the claim they determined the canon is pretty dubious.
     
  2. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    I majored in Early Christian History in college, fifty years ago. It was a big turning-point for me! All I can say is, if you enjoy hot dogs, don't watch them being made. If you want to think the Christian Bible is the Inspired Word of God, then whatever you do, DO NOT study ANY of the early Christian councils! And Gene, the biggest Biblical urban legend of all is that the Christian Bible is the Inspired Word of God. Having read it cover-to-cover at least half a dozen times, I can personally attest that it cannot possibly be the Inspired Word of a rational, internally consistent, and genuinely loving Deity. No way.
     
    kim marine likes this.
  3. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Member

  4. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Perhaps actual church history has changed in the fifty years since I was taught that Nicaea (a) removed most references to reincarnation and (b) added fear-based church-building stuff, but somehow I doubt it. Believe whatever you like, Gene, but it is clear to anyone who actually sits down and reads the Gospels that the Lord's words on love, forgiveness, and the meaning of life are dramatically inconsistent with the sheep-and-goats nonsense tucked in at the back. There is a whole appendix in my book Liberating Jesus that details what they added.
     
  5. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Would you post that appendix here please, Roberta? I'd like to read the details you guys are debating. :)
     
  6. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Member

    The question of what church scholars say the Council did with respect to reincarnation is a factual issue, not a matter of belief. I thought I could settle it since it's discussed on Bart Ehrman's blog, but alas, the answer lies behind a pay wall. The free stuff does go far enough to find he emphatically rejects the idea the Council edited the Bible.
     
  7. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Gene, If you are going to rely on "church scholars," then of course you will never find objective truth about anything! The possibility that the Bible might not after all be The Inspired Word of God is anathema to people who have devoted their lives to defending the notion that the whole thing is God's truth, and any evidence to the contrary be damned. In point of fact, the Bible CANNOT all be the Inspired Word of a perfectly loving, internally consistent, or even of a sane and rational God. Believe whatever you like, Gene, but Dr. Ehrman is a Christian apologist. I am a crusader for the perfect eternal truth of the genuine Jesus! In the 21st century, we can be for Christianity or we can be for Jesus, but it is no longer possible to be for both.
     
    kim marine likes this.
  8. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Would you post that appendix here please, Roberta? I'd like to read the details you guys are debating. :)
     
  9. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Mac, Gene has emailed me to talk about this so I don't think he wants to continue to debate it here. And the appendix is too long to post, but if you would like a PDF of the book just let me know and I will send it to you!
     
  10. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    fair enough, Robera and thanks - I understand that Gene doesn't want further public debate on this subject.

    And yes please, I would like a copy of the text for my own illumination of the aspects you've been discussing with Gene. Would you please use my regular email address to send it as an attachment?
     
  11. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Member

    Actually, I emailed you by accident. Sorry about that. :(
     
  12. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Member

    This is what I had intended to post here:

    I'm afraid you have a completely wrong idea about who Bart Ehrman is. While he used to be a Christian, he no longer is one, and in fact is a "agnostic atheist". He is, however, a highly regarded scholar and an expert on early church history.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman
     
  13. kim marine

    kim marine Member

    I agree with you Roberta! I feel that when The Bible was canonized it was considered to be the inspired word of God, but we have matured since then, and it is time we begin to look at another avenue to find not the inspired, but the actual word of God. I feel it is in all of his creation. Especially us, since we have a mind like no other creature He created
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  14. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Gene, if your oncologist emphatically no longer believed in cancer, would you still trust him to seek the objective truth in treating your illness? I have read him - he was a Biblical scholar with a very distinct point of view; and the fact that someone with a mind so closed actually has stopped believing altogether does not surprise me. That someone I used to consider biased and therefore dishonest nevertheless continues to present himself as an expert in something in which he no longer believes does not surprise me either, and it certainly confirms my long-ago feeling that he is not to be trusted on much.

    The personal beliefs of a scholar should not be important anyway, but rather his closed-minded dogmatism is the issue. And I am curious about why converting me to your personal belief is so important to YOU. Why do you care? My own understanding of the truth is independent of anything that any church council said or did, but rather it is based in the literal facts that (a) the Bible is internally self-contradictory; (b) the God presented there is frequently barbaric; (c) we are in touch now with people we used to think were dead who actually know the truth, and they tell us that Christianity is simply wrong as a belief-system; and (d) Christianity does not follow the Gospel teachings of Jesus. How we ended up with a false belief-system now followed by literally billions of people really doesn't matter all that much, does it? But rather, what matters is discerning and following the TRUTH.
     
    kim marine likes this.
  15. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Member

    I was simply interested in a factual claim. It has nothing to do with personal beliefs or converting people.
     
  16. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    In my opinion, that was pretty clear from your posts (that you were interested in a factual claim and were not trying to convert or convince anyone of anything, that is).
     

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