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The mathematics of reincarnation

Discussion in 'General Afterlife Discussions' started by kermadec, Apr 21, 2014.

  1. For the last few years I have been very interested in the subject of the afterlife and reincarnation and read many books on the subject, including Dr Brian Weiss and Raymond Moody. It has given me great peace of mind and I really enjoy all the information I can get on it. My husband has not been particularly interested in the subject, although he is aware of my interest and is not bothered by it. Last week I was reading Brian Weiss's book for the 2nd time and I have so wanted to share my enthusiasm with him, so I read the story of Catherine (Dr Weiss's ''what the''!! moment) out loud to my husband. He listened to the whole story, but as we got to the end he just looked at me and said reincarnation is not mathematically possible.! I thought about this for the next few days, trying to do calculations!! and I fear he may be right. As each generation comes along, it increases by huge numbers. Those of you who do Family trees will affirm to this. There just simply isn't enough people previously born, to give the total population of the world today, so many previous lives. This has blown all my hope away....Is there anyone who has done the numbers on this is would sure be interested in anything you have to say.

    The 2nd question I have is....from what I have read, we usually reincarnate into the same family...So how freaky must it be, when you get to the otherside, and you are anxious and excited to meet up with all your family and you find out you were also your own Great Great Aunty, your nephew, your great great grand mother in previous lives. Hmmm!!

    :confused:
     
  2. Celera

    Celera Active Member

    Hello kermadec and welcome to the forums!

    These are two quite common concerns with the idea of reincarnation.

    As to the first, when I do a family tree I am struck by the reverse impression -- so many people, so many histories, that all boil down to my particular life with my particular genes.

    It is true that there are far more people alive today than at any other specific time in history (as far as we know.) This has led many people to accept the idea that most of the people who have ever lived are currently alive, which would complicate the idea of reincarnation except for two things:

    1) It isn't actually true -- in fact the people alive today may only be about 5% of the total human lives in history. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-living-outnumber-dead/

    2) There is no reason to assume that all incarnations occur here on Earth, or that every person alive today has been incarnated before. There may be many people alive right now experiencing their first incarnation.

    Your second point is one that troubles several of our members here as well (although it has never especially bothered me personally.) It is not clear to me how consistently we incarnate with all the same people in our immediate family every time. Soul groups, who tend to "travel" together, are very large and somewhat fluid. I believe that in this incarnation I chose a life somewhat detached from most of my soul group.

    Still, the type of thing you mention does occur. I have a different relationship with my sons today than I did when they were children. Our relationship is enriched by our history together, by the years when they were infants and the difficult years when they were adolescents. In the Summerland, our relationship may be further enriched by memories of previous incarnations as well as the various stages of this lifetime.

    Everything is added on, nothing is lost.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
  3. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    There are no mathematical laws that relate to the process of reincarnation. The global population has never been determined by the number of souls who return for more than a single incarnation.

    I'm unable to comment on the books you've been reading but I am able to make observations based on a thirty year interest/involvement with the subjects of life, death and the so-called afterlife. The aspect of reincarnation is simply part of that story and more of the story needs to be read to make sense of elements frequently considered in isolation - as you are doing with reincarnation.

    One problem is that certain aspects are more 'sexy' than the fundamentals and they grab attention without folk having a sound grasp of the fundamentals. Issues such as past life regression draw folk in rather than the simple aspects of why we're here in the first place. Some comprehension of that, however, can lead on to a broader understanding of the issues I mentioned earlier. Near death accounts are similarly attracting attention presently and whereas they're a great start to learning, just as with reincarnation by themselves they can't take you far.

    I hope all that reassures you that some of us have been at this stuff a long time and have pulled apart most (if not all!) of the aspects that puzzle folk to see how notions stack up to scrutiny. On this website you'll find a few of us and elsewhere there will be others. I hope you'll not lose the peace of mind that knowing about survival et al can bring simply because your husband has unnerved you.

    I'm mac and you might want to take a look at some of my other 'stuff' to see if anything I write about appeals to your reason.
     
  4. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Hi! Welcome to Afterlife Forums!

    Firstly, I am going to have to disagree with your husband's calculations. He is right, of course, when he says that population is increasing exponentially. It has been steadily doing so in the West since the Industrial Revolution. However, that does not make affect reincarnation, because you are lacking one piece of information: how many people/spirits/souls there are - in total - who can incarnate. [Actually, each and every person that exists is a powerful, eternal being. We were never created and we will never die.] That being said, the afterlife literature consistently tells us that there are far more people in the afterlife right now, than all the people who have ever been on earth combined! In fact, it's generally said that there are more people trying to be born than there are bodies to put them in. This is one of the reasons why human life is considered so valuable from the perspective of the afterlife.

    From what I have read, we also do not seem to reincarnate into the same families very often. I believe I have read an account or two of this happening, but generally it is not common. We want to get a variety of different experiences when we come to earth (or to any planet), so we generally choose a variety of different time periods, countries, and social-economic backgrounds. Of course, all people outside of Africa can trace their lineage back to India - and thus are all distant relatives - so that's really a very minor detail.
     
  5. frith

    frith Member

    If you're taking a scientific approach to reincarnation as in trying to figure out the math how about first scientifically working out whether we have souls or not?

    Probably not since the last major extinction has there been fewer non-human animals on this planet than there are now. If those animals have souls and they reincarnate I don't see any rules saying they can't become forms of life that have higher brain functions.
     
  6. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Hi Frith! Science has already proven that (1) human consciousness is not housed within the brain and, subsequently, that (2) it is housed within the mind, which is a non-material entity. For all intents and purposes, I suppose we could call this a "soul." Personally, I avoid the word "soul" - because it steeped with religious connotations. I fail, however, to see what this particular proof has to do with reincarnation?

    As for the rest: The afterlife literature actually tells us that "lower" life forms are composed of the same Source (i.e. God, if you prefer to call it that) as we are - however, it is a different form of that Source. Therefore, they tell us, animals never incarnate as higher beings, nor humans as lower ones. It's simply not a possibility. That being said, animals do not seem to reincarnate at all. This is because they are already spiritually perfect - their only purpose here is to help us learn.
     
  7. Nirvana

    Nirvana Active Member

    Really? Where'd you learn this?
     
  8. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    I believe I originally saw this statement on the Science Channel. Mainstream scientists are rather infamous - in our circle - for ignoring the pivotal evidence uncovered concerning spirituality and consciousness but, when it comes to non-controversial issues, they seem to know what they're doing. :D

    After I saw your post, I did a bit of research, which verified the idea that we all - except certain people of African descent - can trace our heritage back to India. This article says that all modern humans descend from Africa, either directly or indirectly. Naturally, modern Africans are the ones who come directly from Africa - but all others come from Africa through India, where the first humans who migrated (or were purposely displaced, which I believe is a real possibility) from Africa settled. A little more research confirmed that this indirect line can be traced to India.

    This makes sense, if one thinks about it. After all, the oldest cultures and religions in the world can be found in India. Hinduism is so ancient that it has no known founder. In fact, some of Vedic chants used by Hindu priests are actually sung in a non-human language. The chants have been passed down from father to son for millennia. Linguistic studies confirm that they are not in and do not resemble any human language. What they resemble most is birdsong. In addition, Hinduism is also the most factual of the world's major religions, when compared to the afterlife evidence. It nails the idea of what God really is and it has a deep understanding of the purpose of life and reincarnation.
     
  9. I really don't want to believe we reincarnate. I want my son who I lost two years ago to remain my son. I want to remain his mother. This creates so much anxiety for me. I don't want to come back. Here or any other planet.
     
  10. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    "I really don't want to believe we reincarnate. I want my son who I lost two years ago to remain my son. I want to remain his mother. This creates so much anxiety for me. I don't want to come back. Here or any other planet."

    Then don't believe it. You don't have to accept the notion of reincarnation if you don't want to but you can't change actuality and what I think I'm hearing is that you are realising that.

    But as a general observation, and not one directed at member mokandi, I've so often remarked on these forum pages that folk are trying to make sense of issues which need to be considered in the context of 'the big picture'. Without a fundamental grasp of the principle of life, death and continued life elsewhere - something it's evident that even some regular contributing members don't have, not just lurkers - they're often looking at issues in baffling isolation.

    In terms of reincarnation it's particularly obvious that western humankind has very little detailed guidance, even from the philosophy that underpins my own small understanding. Less than that and the subject is more down to faith, belief and conjecture.
     
  11. Hello Mokandi. Ironically I was just thinking about you yesterday and wondered if you would post again here sometime. I don't really believe we will fully understand why we are here while on this plane, and why we chose the roles we did. When we get there it will be understood in ways we can't even begin to understand while here. I often feel I don't want to come back here either. But I feel differently now about this life than I did even a year ago. It is a type of dream to me, a seemingly physical one that holds a lot of spiritual value for us. Value that we may only get brief glimpses of while here. It's like when I have to learn or experience something difficult it seems too challenging but then when it's over the relief and knowledge gained is so immense. I think that's just a bit of what we feel after we live our lives and go to the afterlife. It's hard to believe anyone wants to come here. But maybe over there we feel so euphoric and feel so ready to take on a challenge we feel we can conquer anything. We know the value of what is to be gained over there, but we forget while here.
     
  12. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I think that's a very good summation of the situation!
     
  13. Thank you. That is the way I see it, anyway.
     
  14. Celera

    Celera Active Member

    There is a lot of evidence of a non-physical consciousness, and there may even be some studies that support the idea. But scientists themselves are notably cautious about saying that anything at all has been "proven."

    I know I've quibbled about this before, about the meaning of the word "proof" as opposed to "found evidence" or "generally accept" or some such phrase. Many people here are comfortable with the way they use the word, but I fear that starting off a post with "science has proven..." will keep some people from taking you seriously in spite of your actual extensive knowledge.

    Personally, what science has or has not proven no longer carries the same weight with me that it once did. I have read studies that provide evidence of non-physical consciousness, and there is of course a great deal of other evidence that we have some sort of mind or soul that does not originate in the brain. I think that evidence is pretty convincing. Meanwhile, I grew up eating foods provided by science -- Wonder bread with margarine, frosted flakes, and a glass of Tang. Turns out all that stuff not only tastes like crap, it's all terrible for you. So clearly science is not the source of all truth.
     
  15. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    one for Mikey

    Shall we just assume for now that reincarnation mathematically seems unable to account for the current and potential future global population? We have left, then, a need to find an alternate mechanism to explain how the present number of animating spirits, ca 7 billion came about and how the projected 9 billion by 2050 will be achieved.

    Of course the number has been increasing rapidly for some years so the mechanism is already in force. Wonder if Mikey can explain for us how it works, Carol?

    no pressure! ;)
     
  16. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Of course, a scientist must always maintain objectivity and skepticism, in addition to being always open to new evidence, since that is what separates science from religion - or what used to anyway. However, what we call mainstream science no longer does that with regards to consciousness. Therefore mainstream science is more or less a new type of atheistic religion. It's basis is founded in facts, and not holy scriptures, but the result is the same. If you ask any scientists who works in the field of consciousness or spirituality research, they will tell you that science can and has already proven that the source of consciousness is not the physical brain. I've spoken with many such people and they all seem to agree on this point. There are a variety of books, to verify this claim, listed on my website and on FunOfDying.com. That being said, I do see your point. Perhaps my wording was too assertive there. However, I do believe that it was accurate in nature

    The afterlife evidence goes far beyond what any form of science is comfortable verifying. For example, channeled information has provided us with insights into the inner workings of the spiritual realms, which scientists may not accept until the first telephone systems "to the beyond" are unveiled. My point here is that, if one maintains a healthy sense of scepticism oneself, one need not wait for scientists to verify each facet of the afterlife literature.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2014
  17. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Just an FYI, Carol mentioned to me that she would have limited computer access this week, so we might be kept in suspense for a few days. ;)

    I do wonder though, if the population is increasing so that more and more spirits can have more ample opportunities to incarnate and evolve more rapidly?
     
  18. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    This is an excellent point, which totally slipped my mind!

    The most reliable, channeled information generally suggests that the earth is actually a very rigorous "school." There are other planets in this physical reality with a large variety of different, sentient beings - we are told that our planet provides the most challenging curriculum. As Roberta put it once, we are akin to the Navy SEALs of this dimension. In addition to that, Mikey has confirmed that there are other physical dimensions in the Greater Reality, into which beings can incarnate. Then, one must consider that there are non-physical beings which don't incarnate at all, living in a variety of non-physical regions. So, as Celera points out, the Greater Reality is incredibly vast! We seem to pick a "home" planet, where we plan to live most of our incarnations - however, sometimes we mix it up with a lifetime on an alien world.

    The point about someone's first incarnation is a bit tricky, though. We are told that there is no objective time, because time is an imposed construct incumbent to our physical reality. This means that it is possible that, in the other physical realms, time works differently (or is even absent, though I cannot imagine how that would work). In the spiritual realms, there is no time - except for in the Summerland, where there is an elastic type of time in order to wean the newcomers off their need for structured time.

    Higher beings tell us that all our incarnations are really happening at once, in a way that our minds simply cannot grasp, so I am unsure as to whether or not we can really say that we have "first" or "last" incarnations. Some literature actually hints at the fact that, if we progress sufficiently in our "later" incarnations, we can reverse the mistakes made in our "earlier" ones. For example, if civilisation progressed sufficiently, events like the Holocaust would simply cease to have existed. No part of time - past or future - is set in stone apparently. Isn't that incredible to imagine? :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2014
  19. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Dear Mokandi, please do not be bothered by this! I am all but certain that reincarnation does occur for almost every person, but it does not appear to be forced. People come to earth - or other planets/realities - because they desire to learn and progress spiritually, not due to coercion or any type of divine mandate. You will not return to earth until/unless you choose to do so. I have even heard of one person who only lived one incarnation, and then chose to continue her learning entirely in spirit. So it is possible, at least in some cases, to refuse to return.

    And, of course, your son will be your son - no matter what! I know that this statement appears to be in conflict with the nature of reincarnation, but I promise you that is not the case. You are both powerful, eternal beings, who evidently share a loving connection - and that will never change.
     
  20. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Thanks, Andrew - I'd expected you'd've left us and I'm glad you haven't...

    There's no hurry with Mikey's input and it will give more time for banter and nonsense. ;) But on a serious note I intend to run threads on a couple of my other sites for the hell of it, just to see what folk say. There's a curious juxtaposition here of ideas concerning reincarnation against doubt that there's even an afterlife at all or if there is ust how 'stuff' works there!

    Assuming one is persuaded that we are all animated by our spirits, and that those spirits came from somewhere at some time, we might wonder about the logistics that sort us individually yet can also deal with the mass return of souls after a major calamity such as the great wars. Or how it can synchonize demand and supply to match an unprecedentedly rapid growth in the global population?

    Put in another way, how are so many traumatised souls coped with after disaster on a grand scale and where do so many new uns come from for all the needed animating spirits now and into the future?
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014

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