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The Devil's Due

Discussion in 'Spiritual Growth & Development' started by OrichalcumEye, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. The going theme on these forums seems to be that there's definitely a God, a heaven, and all that jazz... but there's also definitely no Satan, Devil, Hades, or whatever you want to call him, and no hell. What I'd like to know is, why do you assume there can be one without the other? Both concepts come out of the same basic pack of myths and scriptures in the Abrahamic traditions, right?

    I expect someone will mention that they've not heard anybody mention a devil in medium-assisted communications or what have you. My rebuttal is that any devil worth his brimstone, being less powerful and inviting than his counterpart, would do all he can to conceal his existence from all but those who are already in his clutches. You have to admit, it's literally irrefutable...
     
  2. I really, truly doubt that any real figure of evil incarnate could manage to insinuate himself into every Judeo-Christian religion and simultaneously hide from all of the higher beings that have contacted us thus far. It makes no sense unless you also assume that everybody in the afterlife is "in on it" and working to keep the devil hidden.

    It's a moot point, anyway: everything that afterlife researchers have learned so far indicates that evil brings weakness, and is a fundamentally self-defeating quality. Any being of pure malice resembling the "Satan" of mainstream Christian thought would therefore be completely harmless.
     
  3. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Thank you for asking about this, dear OrichalcumEye! I think Roberta actually mentions this briefly in her book (Chapter 9 maybe). Here is the gist of what I have come to understand about evil:

    1. Evil doesn't exist:
    There is more than sufficient proof, both scientific and anecdotal, to prove that God/Mind is the only thing that is real. Everything else is an illusion. What is an illusion? Carol and Mikey had some wonderful input about this over the weekend. An illusion is real in some sense, but it doesn't exist objectively. So this entire universe is an illusion. It is real, but not objectively because it is not part of the Greater Reality. I know this sounds like a contradiction, but it really isn't when you think about it. Anyway, God is all that exists - even we are part of Him. God, in turn, is made of nothing but loving energy. So where in that, could evil exist?

    What we earthly beings consider evil, such as murder and torture, are just mistakes. Murderers are not evil, they are just not spiritually advanced as much as we are and can thus be more easily misguided by earthly temptations. It is likely that everyone has killed someone at some point in their many lives, even people like Yeshua. So, when you are judging a murderer, you are also judging yourself.

    So, if everything is good, wherefore can the devil exist?


    2. The Devil is likely a primitive fairy tale:
    God is absolutely loving. When you are familiar with the evidence of this, it is no longer to possible to doubt it. Therefore, the story of Lucifer makes no sense. If someone did rise up against God in Heaven, and I highly doubt that anyone who's there would want to, God would not respond at all. Apparently, God might not even be aware of the universe, since it doesn't exist in His Eyes. The people around that person who was rebelling against God would try to help him realize that God is all that is, and that he is part of God. There is no way that God would punish this person though, especially by sending them to Hell.

    My thinking is that the devil was created by primitive, iron-age people who couldn't grasp the concept that there was no evil. There was never a war with the Hell. Yes, even Yeshua is fabled to have talked of the devil, but he really didn't. His real meaning has been lost in translation. The Our Father prayer, which now finishes with "and deliver us from the evil one." was original "and strengthen us against temptation." You see, he was talking about earthly attachments that hinder spiritual growth, not the devil. I don't know why it was translated that way.

    3. Love is the only powerful thing:
    As Yeshua said, "The heaven and earth shall pass away; my words shall never pass away." He is right, his teachings of love are the only eternal thing. As we already established, evil is doesn't exist - it is not even an illusion, just a misunderstanding. Love is eternal!

    Furthermore, as VioletRose pointed out, "evil" beings are extremely weak. They have no power but that which you give them. The people in the afterlife are aware of the misguided beings in this spiritual planes, but they tell us that the devil doesn't exist. They don't just leave him out, they refute his existence. These highly advanced beings would certainly be aware of such a weak, pittiful being as the devil. It is impossible that primitive humans would find out about the devil thousands of years ago, without enlightened beings knowing about it now.


    One can exist without the other, dear OE. I know a lot of people that good isn't good without being compared to evil, but that never made sense to me. Satan is a myth. For the devil to exist, that would mean that part of God was permanently evil, which is impossible!
     
  4. Birki

    Birki Member

    Speaking of Abrahamic tradition, I was watching "Ancient Aliens" tonight on TV (a recorded episode, I don't know when it aired), and they hypothesized that Abraham was actually speaking to two different alien beings when "God" told him to kill his son...then told him not to. So perhaps the "devil" is really just a bunch of bad aliens! Maybe. ;) But I agree with the others, the devil doesn't really exist. I know some religions/spiritual traditions have the concept of yin-yang, two sides coexisting, but I don't think it is is necessary or logical that if we have good (God) we must have bad ("devil").
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2011
  5. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    What a fabulous question, dear Eye! And as always, my dear friends Vita and Birki and VioletRose, you have answered him wonderfully - there is little more to add. This is such an important question, though, that I want just to talk about my own view of Satan and how I have come to see this issue. For decades I looked for evidence of a devil - it was at the top of my short-list of of questions! - and I found almost no discussion of it anywhere in the older afterlife literature. It was as if nobody in 1920 cared about even asking this question; or if they asked it, they were told rather impatiently that of course there is no devil... next question? It was frustrating! I kept coming across evidence of some really demonic disembodied nasties in the world, so how could there not be a devil? It is true, as Vita and Birki say, that good does not require evil as an opposite; but on the other hand, what I wanted was the truth, and not just theories. The devil is known as a trickster and a deceiver, and I assumed for decades that there likely was a master-source for all the evil in the world. The devil just was hiding very, very well. It was really only when I spent time piecing together the physics of the greater reality that I began to put it all together, and I saw (to my relief!) that not only is it possible for there to be no devil, but it seems to be impossible for a powerful negative entity to exist. Here is what I now understand to be true:

    1) Spiritual advancement is the only source of genuine power. The more advanced a being is, the more powerful it is; and the more spiritually benighted a being is, the weaker it is - to the point where the only power that disembodied nasties have left is to frighten the susceptible. We have talked about this quite a bit elsewhere on these forums, and I have never found an exception to this rule: disembodied demons are scary, but they have no power to do anything. Very advanced disembodied beings, on the other hand, can manipulate matter and interact with our minds in amazing (and sometimes incredible) ways.

    2) Primitive societies were easily frightened. It is so easy for people to scare themselves! Especially when primitives didn't understand the source of droughts or illness or death, and when spooky spirits were all around them, it is easy to see where the idea of a devil came from. All those nasties likely had a source and a leader! Made sense to them; and for a long time, it made sense to me, too.

    3) We ourselves are apparently the source of whatever evil exists in the universe. We can't be sure about this, of course, but advanced channeled beings have hinted at saying that we are it, guys! In freely using our free will while being clueless about why we are here and what reality actually is, some of us have chosen to experiment with not-love in ways which have created negative energies which simply do not exist elsewhere. If this is true, then the imminent elevation of human consciousness should go a long way toward eliminating what is surely the worst possible kind of pollution!

    4) God is all that exists. Or Mind, if you will. Our minds are part of eternal Mind, which means that you and I are real as well; but everything else is Mind-created illusion. As Mikey tells us, this illusion is not vapor: it is "real," in that we need to take it seriously and we cannot ignore it. But in an ultimate sense, only God is real. And in that ultimate sense, evil cannot exist.

    - Great and profound question, dear OrichalcumEye - thank you so much for asking it and getting us thinking!
     
  6. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Hi Birki! I was just talking about this show on another thread here! It is my educated guess that a good deal of the "divine" beings in the Old Testament are really aliens. For example, why did Moses come down from Mount Sinai with white hair? Radiation, which also explains his death. I really love that show, and the books.
     
  7. Birki

    Birki Member

    I saw that! In fact while we were watching the show I read your other post to my husband!
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2011
  8. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    I really love watching Ancient Aliens! The only thing I don't like about it is that Erich von Däniken, the man who came up with this theory to begin with, isn't on it a lot. He's getting older though and can't be on as much. I think he's about 85 or so now.

    Anyway, I have a feeling that God isn't in the Old Testament as much as He is given credit for. God is not vengeful and angry, and the being(s) in the Old Testament is. I have to believe that stories like the Exodus (where God kills the first-born sons of Egypt, has Moses kill 3,000 Israelites, and traps the Israelites in the desert for 40 years because they made a mistake) have some fallible being in them. God is infallible. This appears to be more than just the ancient people's interpretations of the Divine. I think that it is actually an alien, or perhaps a group of aliens.

    I've always been fascinated with aliens (perhaps I would was of those too in a past life :)). I know that we are being guided now by advanced aliens, as well as spiritual beings that people mistake for aliens.
     
  9. I gotta admit, I love watching Ancient Aliens, too... if only because that one guy with the crazy hair and lazy eye is hilarious.

    It's interesting that you're so eager to dismiss the idea of a devil as "ancient superstition", considering that a not-insignificant number of people will readily assign all the rest of this topic to that very same category. Additionally, the idea of overthrowing God isn't necessary considering that, since God apparently doesn't directly intervene, one need not deal with him at all to attain total domination of the universe.

    In the terminology used on this forum, a plausible analogue for "Satan" could be a largish, singular chunk of "consciousness" that split off from God at the moment of creation; just aware and powerful enough to retain a self-identification as God, yet still locked within this "hypothetical" universe and too weak and ignorant to fully comprehend its own nature. Such a being would be like a demi-urge, voraciously seeking power and worship, and it would become increasingly bitter and incensed at any suggestion or worship of a higher, "true" God.
     
  10. Annie

    Annie Member

    I just think that if Satan existed, more spirits would've mentioned it by now, but I never hear anyone talk about it. That's not to say the malevolence doesn't exist though! Earthbound spirits are usually confused but they can be very nasty, I've heard of astral projectors meeting up with some not-so-friendly types in the afterlife (I'm guessing mostly on level 1), people can become possessed, or just harassed by having their houses haunted. However, I think these malevolent spirits are just misguided, they aren't minions for some dark lord of the underworld.

    Speaking of aliens, Vita that is very interesting what you said about things in the Bible being caused by aliens. Do you know anything about cow mutilations, do you think those are caused by vengeful aliens? They happen around here from time to time and there seems to be no logical explanation and the way they end up mutilated seems impossible to be caused by humans. But I can't figure out why any "nice" aliens would kill a harmless cow just for the sick pleasure of it, especially when that sort of thing costs ranchers at least a thousand dollars per cow. Just doesn't sound like something an advanced being would do.
     
  11. Carol and Mikey

    Carol and Mikey Golden Hearts

    Mikey continues to say there is no "Satin or Devil". There is non-loving or negative energy out there. This energy, more often than not, is lower love souls making choices to be "negative" in their ways. This energy will never be as "powerful" as true loving energy! Mikey said we should always strive to be as loving as possible. :)
    Carol and Mikey "in Spirit"
     
  12. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    I think that guy with the crazy hair is Georgio Suklos. He is rather eccentric!

    In all the types of mind energy I have seen, there isn't one that would make your theory possible. Anyway, if your "chunk of consciousness" did exist, it would be good at heart because everyone/thing that split with God is good because God is good. And, because all energy would eventually reunite with God (technically we have already done that and we are there right now), this devil-energy thing would eventually see the light and become a good being. There is no type of consciousness too ignorant to understand this stuff - in fact it is we humans, not the plants or animals (who are also conscious) who seem to have the trouble.

    I should also mention that evil has no power. So this being would be essentially powerless in the world and could do little than spook the weaker of the human race.
     
  13. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    You're right, Annie! Malevolence does exist, but evil doesn't. If you look at the root of the word malevolence, you notice it is made of two Latin roots. Mal means "bad" or "evil". Volence is derived from volenta, which means "will". So the word itself means essentially "wanting evil [to occur]". There are being who want to do evil, but evil doesn't exist so their only option to get satisfaction is to grow spiritually.

    Now, about the cows. We have to remember that aliens are physical beings. They are essentially people, on their bodies are shaped differently. So, just like people, some are benevolent and others are malevolent. It has to do with how spiritually advanced the being is, and the general spiritual advancement of his planet. Some planets are higher spiritually than earth, and some are lower.

    Anyway, the aliens that would mutilate cows could be less advanced spiritually. They would have to have some pretty advanced technology, though, in order to get here. I don't know why they choose to mutilate cows, if they are indeed malevolent, but they likely gain something from it. Maybe there is some special substance in earth cows that is like gold on their planet? Who knows?

    If they are not malevolent, they could simply be doing medical experiments, which they do on people as well. This is why searching for aliens is like using a Ouija board - sometimes you find good people, but most of them time you seem to find malevolent or confused people. Anyway, it is possible that they are doing experiments, but that's an awful lot of cows. There has got to be an explanation for this, but I have no idea what it is. There are many possibilities, but I cannot narrow it down any further. Sorry!
     
  14. Annie

    Annie Member

    Thanks for your input Vita. I hate to think that there are bad aliens out there, that's rather scary, but if they hated us so much then I'm sure they could go to greater lengths to destroy us. Maybe it really is medical experiments, who knows?
     
  15. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    I don't know what is causing the cow-mutilations, but I can guess. I have a strong sense based on reading channeled material that we ourselves are the most violent beings, and that every kind of alien which is advanced enough to leave its home planet is highly benevolent. Essentially, those who are here are part of an extensive rescue mission meant to save us from ourselves! That being said, it is possible that extraterrestrial visitors are feeding on cattle, just as we do. It may be that they take most of their cow-harvest from the open plains, and whatever they leave is quickly scavenged; but once in awhile they might take an animal which is closer to civilization, and perhaps because they were surprised or frightened away they left a partially-butchered animal or two behind. That is my own guess as to what is going on, since after all they are very far from home and they would need to eat - wouldn't they? Don't worry about evil extraterrestrials, dear Annie - it is earthlings who are the ones to be feared!
     
  16. Annie

    Annie Member

    Thanks Roberta, I never thought of it that way, I guess I never thought that aliens need to eat too! It seems they're more likely to eat organs because I think those are usually what is missing from these cattle.

    I'm going to be on vacation for a few days and I'll miss you guys while I'm gone! :) See you all soon.
     
  17. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Have fun, Annie!!
     
  18. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Have a great vacation, Annie! :)
     
  19. Interesting read, thanks! So, I am 'battling' with my partner about hell and the devil. She's a Catholic and thus believes in Hell and the devil.

    I do believe that these do not exist and am trying to explain to her. The only thing that she could come up with in our debate was....

    "Then what about satanist that worship the devil?" She knows a priest that does exorcisms and thus she is convinced that the devil is there trying to steal our souls! She then tells me that one of the devil's goals is to 'convince' us that he does not exists. haha.

    Anyway, what would you tell to a person if he/she tries to use satanism/exorcisms as part of a proof that the devil and hell exists!?

    I do not wish that these concepts pass on to our little child and that is why I am trying my best to shed light on the truth. I feel that our little one already knows this (from her deep instincts/enlightenment?) cause she does not want to go to church (like me) but unfortunately she is being 'forced' in a nice way.

    She is however full of love :) It's amazing how difficult it is to have a conversation/debate about these things with some people who are very intelligent and yet stick to their believes without exploring other truths with an open mind.

    Cheers
    Wonderer
     
  20. Birki

    Birki Member

    I grew up Catholic and every night I was afraid the devil would come get me. Every night I was afraid I would die because of a story they told us at Sunday school (CCD) about Jesus coming to take away a boy who was sick. I had a fairly active imagination so I really took these stories to heart. I think it is good to be cautious on behalf of your child. However the whole parents/partners issue is separate, I think. I think it is good to try and gently get your partner to see the light, so to speak. So discussing commonalities is good. For example, there are possessions, but they are simply misguided earthbound human spirits, not the work of some evil force called the devil. Perhaps discussing Catholic miracles, such as healing miracles, would be good. Showing her that God is good, God is love is really what is important. I think religion is fine if it helps people to connect with God, for some people it does that. Some people really like the ritual. But it should not be used to scare people or make them more fearful. Does your partner really want your child raised to be fearful? Would your partner be willing to read The Fun of Dying? In it Roberta actually talks quite a bit about Jesus and what he really said, so that could be a path for Cathoics and Chrisitans to understand the truth.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2011

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