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Steve's ponderings

Discussion in 'General Afterlife Discussions' started by STEVEN LEVEE, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. STEVEN LEVEE

    STEVEN LEVEE Member

    Hi Everyone. I am new to the site but not to the knowledge of the afterlife. I have a dilemma that I would like to hear other (like thinking) peoples' opinions on.
    I have a good friend who I have had a disagreement with over an interesting point. I have been open with him about my beliefs since I had my awakening to spirit about 14 years ago. He always acted fascinated when I'd tell him about my various sittings with mediums both mental and physical & other spiritual ceremonies I have attended. He has now even had some positive experiences himself with a couple of mediums.
    I have noticed over the years that he refers to himself on Facebook as an atheist. The last time he called me to hear about my recent experience...I ignored him for about a month before finally telling him that I didn't call him back to talk about my reading because I think he's a hypocrite and just didn't really want to discuss it with him. I don't see how he can believe what I have related to him & what he has actually now seen for himself, and NOT believe in god?
    I have explained to him that the creative/loving/intelligent source of life is god...not a person or any deity that religions have been written about. That without it there would be no life...just like a light-bulb is dead without the electricity to light it up. This is glaringly obvious to me...
    Anyway, I seek other peoples opinions on this. Can we believe in the afterlife/spirit/communication/etc...and still be Atheist?
    Thanks in advance for your input:)
    Steve
     
  2. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    "Can we believe in the afterlife/spirit/communication/etc...and still be Atheist?"

    Yes, absolutely. Belief in a god/deity is not necessary in order to believe in an afterlife. Now, belief in one is often accompanied by belief in the other, but there are also plenty of people who believe in the existence of an afterlife but not in the existence of a god/deity.

    It is quite possible that your friend is an atheist who believes in the existence of some sort of afterlife.
     
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  3. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    If folk accept survival and the so-called afterlife they can be an atheist or anything else they wish as far as I'm concerned. It wouldn't matter a jot to me - for me the former is much more important than the latter..

    Like bluebird I see no difficulty in accepting there's an afterlife without believing in a god even though that's not my personal approach. And maybe in time his acceptance of the one will lead to a different perspective of the other; maybe in time he'll come to accept that one without the other makes little sense. And maybe not but I'd hate for a difference of approach about God to sour a friendship.

    That he's interested enough to contact you to ask about some recent experience suggests (edit) to me he's a person who cares and not a hypocrite. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
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  4. pandora97

    pandora97 Active Member

    May I ask how your friend replied to you calling him a hypocrite?
     
  5. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Agreed.
     
  6. Cute Bear

    Cute Bear Banned

    define.
     
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  7. pandora97

    pandora97 Active Member



    My thought exactly! Perhaps you and your friend have a different understanding of "atheist"?
     
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  8. STEVEN LEVEE

    STEVEN LEVEE Member

    Well...he didn't react well to being called a hypocrite...Probably was the wrong word to use... In the end I said you are free to believe whatever you like...however contradictory it is...and I will accept it. We are still friends... I don't have to be or even know that I am right about it...just looking for other people's opinions. Like...how the heck do you believe we're eternal souls but not think there's a higher power?
     
  9. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    About many things I can scarcely believe that others hold a particular belief!

    Folk rarely fail to amaze... ;):)
     
  10. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    why? Any dictionary can offer a definition.
     
  11. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    That's good to hear.
     
  12. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    It's good the two of you are still friends.

    As for your question -- personally, I am agnostic on both (all three, actually) counts. I don't know if we are eternal souls, I don't know if an afterlife exists, and I don't know if there's a god. However, while I acknowledge that it's possible that humanity, the Earth, the universe, etc., was created by a god, I do not assume that there must be a creator. I see no proof of such a being/force, hence my agnosticism.
     
  13. STEVEN LEVEE

    STEVEN LEVEE Member

    Hi Blue,
    It is everyone's individual journey...I always need to remember that...Not my job to convince anyone.
    To you I say...go read "Voices in the Dark" (Leslie Flint's bio) so you know the story behind the medium. Then, go listen to the actual voices of spirits on the other side & what they have to say (Leslie Flint Trust recordings...now on YouTube)...Then draw your own conclusions. It's either all a hoax (no way) or it is factual...
    After him, read Arthur Findlay's "On the Edge of the Etheric" & then his literal translations of spirit encounters called "Where Two Worlds Meet"(very similar to Leslie's...the same really) with John Sloan as the medium...In both cases you can either think these were a huge hoax which would be a total waste of time for everybody or factual & something that really occurred & shows evidence/proof for the afterlife...
    Of course these are 2 of many...Just happen to be my favorite 2.
    Also, I think both the above mentioned books are available free online in PDF form...
    Steve
     
  14. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Steve,

    Thanks for the book recommendations; I may look into them.

    I do think that sometimes people/mediums may genuinely believe they are communicating with the dead, when they may not be. I'm not saying this is the case with either Leslie Flint or John Sloan, as while I have heard Flint's name I am really not familiar with the work of either person; I'm just saying that it's not true that the only two possibilities are (1) hoax, or (2) proof. Sometimes people truly believe in what they are doing, yet they can still be wrong.

    In any case, I know that for myself the only sufficient proof of an afterlife will come from my husband, if he still exists (in an afterlife). No one else's account, no matter how well conveyed, would be proof to me, though I might find the accounts/books interesting. But I know that's not the case for everyone else.
     
  15. MauiNui

    MauiNui New Member

    Steven, it seems that your feelings are rooted in a bit of anxiety. Be mindful of when you're at the biological/emotional or intellectual levels of your awareness (where things like frustration live). In these levels of awareness feelings of conflict are bound to arise, especially if you dwell. If you're mindful of this, you'll be able to dismiss them as just gusts in a storm.

    Once you get back to the spiritual level of your awareness (many ways to do that), you'll come to peace with your friend. Obviously, we can best trust this level for clarity. Remember, it's all good and when it feels otherwise, you've probably drifted back down in awareness. As we do.

    MHO
     
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  16. MauiNui

    MauiNui New Member

    Blue, I hear what you're saying. I wish I could share my own NDE and somehow transmit the kind of certainty one is left with. You're right to recognize what you don't know directly. Frankly, I don't know how anyone navigates this stuff without a guiding experience. This is indeed a world of dreams and illusions so it's certainly best to be selective with what you take in.

    I'm not sure its important to know everything. If you're not in fear of death; know that your dearly departed are with you in your spirit awareness; and live life with energy and enthusiasm, you're pretty much doing it all. The rest will come when it comes.

     
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  17. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Active Member

    In a case like Flint or Sloan, mere belief will not suffice. And if you listen to the extensive Flint recordings, there are cases where it is difficult to see how a fake could be produced. I think I may discuss the Bobby Tracey recording from that point of view, asking if it was a hoax, how was it produced?
     
  18. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Thanks MauiNui. I wish that your certainty (and/or anyone else's) could be transmitted to me as well, but it just doesn't work that way. The thing is, I have had things happen that may very well be signs from my husband, but I don't know for sure, and I can't just assume that they are signs from him when they may just be wishful thinking on my part. I hope, more than anything, that my husband still exists in an afterlife, that he is happy and well, that he is still himself, and that he & I will be together again. That is so important to me, and I can't just "choose" to believe that it is the case, I need proof (I'm not saying you're saying I can choose to believe, I'm just saying this in general).
     
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  19. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Sorry, but what do you mean when you say that "In a case like Flint or Sloan, mere belief will not suffice."?
     
  20. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Active Member

    You can't produce a voice on a tape just by belief; there needs to be an actual sound.
     
  21. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    While not intending to diminish the personal importance and significance of anyone's near-death experience, in themselves they do not directly provide evidence of post-death existence. (To save absurdly long debates about there 'being no such thing as death' I'm using the word in its customary sense - the death and disposal of a person's body - ie no chance of that body/person coming back to life.)
    However the so-called near death experience often leaves the experiencer with an outlook on life - and death - very different from the one (s)he had before the experience and may lead to their researching all they can to understand actual death and what follows.

    Not sure I understand what's implied in the last sentence but I'm going to say that my world isn't one of dreams and illusions. I expect I'm far from being alone.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  22. Cute Bear

    Cute Bear Banned


    Dictionaries do not define individual expressions of a word.
     
  23. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Ok, thank you.
     
  24. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Naturally they don't. Dictionaries provide definitions reflecting society's general usage. Individual definitions - personal definitions - have what importance if they're not generally accepted or understood?
     
  25. Amore

    Amore Active Member

    Interesting for Steve might be the fact that many NDE experiencers who believed in God before their near death stated afterwards that there is no God, their beliefs turned 180 degrees.

    I personally don't and never have believed in a God. When I was a teenager I came to the realisation that there is Godliness everywhere, but no God. That's how I called it henceforth. I also call it "The Divine" or simply "Love". I don't like the term "Higher Power" because like with the word "God" it implies that there is an entity somehow "higher" or "better" than us, which I don't believe is the case. These terms also imply some sort of separation between us and that "Higher Power", "God", or whatever you want to call it, which again, I don't believe is the case. We are already godly, everyone and everything is. (Disclaimer: I do sometimes use the word God in general conversation, simply because it is a term that people are most familiar with.)

    So, Steven, I can totally understand your friend describing himself as an atheist. I could use that word for myself too, because I don't believe in a God, but I do believe in an afterlife and the spirit world. I don't think your friend is a hypocryte.
     
  26. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    You quoted a piece of one of my postings and I'm responding only to that....

    How many NDE experiencers is many? What is the source of your data? And what do those data show anyway?

    Near death experiences are not equivalent to death hence who knows what an 'NDEr' has experienced and learned - or failed to learn? Other than what some of them relate later. What does seem logical is that any impact on an experiencer is most relevant to that experiencer.

    Perhaps even more so than the experience of evidential mediumship by a sitter?
     
  27. Amore

    Amore Active Member

    Ok, "many" is not a good term I admit. I said "many" because I was surprised how often this 180 degree turn happens. I didn't expect it, so to my feeling there were "many". Sorry for being vague.

    I must have read 100s, maybe approaching 1000 NDEs on the nderf.org website. Of course I can't put a number on the instances where people "came back" describing themselves now as an atheist, but just guessing - probably 100 times.

    I think there must be statistics somewhere as these NDE accounts are used for research. Someone probably knows a more accurate percentage. If anyone knows, please share!

    I understand NDEs are not the same as death, but as you said in another thread, it's like someone visited London who can't claim he now knows the whole of UK - BUT they did see London and surely have had a taste of the beyond. The fact that some (another vague word!) then come back and turn from being believers (in God) to non-believers, is very interesting!
     
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  28. Obiwan

    Obiwan New Member

    Hm. Perhaps it depends what a person means by "God". As far as my own reading is concerned I'd say many NDE experiencers, of those who comment on the subject, report a Higher Power if not God, and most who do, interpret that 'Higher Power' as God in some way. There are of course NDE experiencers who don't touch on the subject of a deity of any kind but that's different IMHO from saying there isn't one.

    I'd say almost, if not all ADC communications that I've read, that touch on the subject, mention a Higher Power or God of some kind. What they generally don't do (in ADCs anyway) is identify exactly what that "God" is. I remember Silver Birch who was mentioned in another thread commenting that God, or 'The Great Spirit' as he put it, is not 'personal' - which I took to mean 'not an old man with beard', or a single entity in the sense that a person is (as far as that's true).

    Personally, I think it is reasonable to accept that there is an afterlife and be an atheist - I don't see the connection. I'd describe myself as agnostic about it but someone who wouldn't be surprised to find there was some sort of "Higher Power".
     
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  29. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    All these data are interesting but they don't necessarily paint much of a picture....

    NDEs are quite definitely different from experiencing death but they do indeed appear to give a flavor of what life eternal may mean. But visiting whatever place it is that NDErs visit is not a resonable basis - I suggest - for concluding that there isn't, or indeed is, an entity we call God. Just as visiting London - or Disney - certainly gives a taste of foreign lands and lives drawing conclusions about the citizens of those lands would be unwise based only on what we experienced in London or in Disneyland.

    More information, relevant information, is needed.
     
  30. Amore

    Amore Active Member

    mac, maybe these reports don't paint much of a picture for you, and more information is needed to understand the afterlife, nevertheless, for these people I was referring to, the experience of an NDE was enough to turn their belief in God upside down. Which was the point I was making. And I find that very interesting.
     

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