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So, where is Osama now?

Discussion in 'Afterlife Evidence' started by Cromulent, May 8, 2011.

  1. Cromulent

    Cromulent New Member

    I've been able to grok so far that the majority of people on this board believe in a specific, concrete afterlife consisting only of a "heaven," with no "hell." I've been okay with the idea until a few days ago.

    Under the no-hell paradigm, what's happening to Osama bin Laden right now?

    If we are our own judges and whatnot, does that mean that the recently-dead terrorist mastermind could theoretically be enjoying his expected reward of 72 virgins, or would that be a "hollow heaven" that would only last until he gets bored with the whole business?

    Are we supposed to believe that Osama's going to say "oh jeez, I really screwed that life up," snap his fingers, and move along to whatever eternity has in store for him and everybody else?

    Is this supposed to make me feel good about the afterlife? Knowing that the truly evil people, who escape the consequences of their actions for a lifetime, end up facing no consequences afterward either? I just can't stomach the notion that a selfless, generous, honorable person who lives and dies without causing harm or grief will end up in the same place as a hateful, diabolical bastard that orchestrates the needless deaths of thousands and then repeatedly releases gloating-filled videotapes to the press.

    This whole business just doesn't make any sense.
    Hummingbird likes this.
  2. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Hi Cromulent! It seems that you are in the majority, dear friend. On Thursday evening Bill O’Reilly announced that 61% of Americans believe that Osama bin Laden is in hell. O’Reilly then griped, “What’s wrong with the other 39%?” I was tempted to retort, “They’re just Christians, Bill!” But the answer is more complicated.

    The death of Osama bin Laden (let’s call him “OBL”) has prompted me to wonder, too, what apparently everybody else is wondering: where is he now? I can assure you that he is not in hell, since apparently there is no hell. And he may well be in a hollow heaven, just as Cromulent suggests. But let’s try now to think this through:

    1) There is no evidence of what we think of as hell. The only evidence for a fiery hell comes from a few near-death experiences in which people found themselves in fire and immediately called for help, whereupon they were out of that illusion. So if you were hoping that the guy was medium-well-done by now, I am confident that is not happening.

    2) People who die feeling very guilty will detour to the outer-darkness level. There is in fact a punishment area to the afterlife, and it is just what Jesus described: it is an outer darkness full of wailing and gnashing of teeth. The people there look and act like powerless demons, either huddled in smelly and chilly darkness or trying grimly to destroy each other. If you wish OBL ill, then you hope that this is where he went immediately, but I consider that unlikely. I doubt that he felt sufficiently guilty when he died.

    3) Those who die with strong religious convictions often put themselves into hollow heavens. These places look like whatever you were expecting your heaven to be, so the most common ones described by Christians are clouds (which may include Saint Peter’s Gates) and a village surrounding a steepled church. I assume there are Islamic hollow heavens, and if I were betting, then this is where I think that OBL first landed. All hollow heavens seem to be dimly lit, but that wouldn’t bother a new arrival in what I imagine would look to him like a silken tent that would likely contain a bevy of beautiful young women – and, yes, perhaps 72 in all. What looked to OBL like virgins, however, would in fact be upper-level beings whose main concern would be rescuing him from his hollow-heaven illusion and convincing him that true heaven still awaited him. He would feel no judgment in his hollow heaven. He probably wouldn’t believe them at first – we are told that those who land in these places often take a lot of convincing – but eventually he would be persuaded. And his hollow-heaven greeters would bear him gently to the brightly-lit Summerland levels.

    4) Those who die without feeling immediate guilt and avoid detouring into a hollow heaven will make it to the Summerland levels more or less right away. Here we are surrounded by joyous loved ones in a setting which looks a lot like a beautiful version of the earth we’ve just left. For OBL, whether he arrived there soon after death or after a detour to a hollow heaven, his Summerland likely would look wild and mountainous and rather like Afghanistan, but it would be stunning and brilliant with flowers. He would be delighted initially, and quite relieved!

    But then would come his judgment. Remember, we are on earth to learn spiritually! From the perspective of the Summerland, what OBL did in life will be seen through the prism of what he can learn from it. For people who have gotten seriously off-track – and OBL likely is in this category – the whole concern at this point is to help us fully understand all the mistakes that we have made, and then give us the guidance and support and counseling that we will need in order to forgive ourselves for our mistakes. Here is a general outline of that process, as we understand it from the afterlife evidence:

    1) We go through a life review. Whether it happens privately with a guide or two present, or in a great chamber before a council of elders, we are made to experience every event of our entire lives. We feel again how it felt to live through it, but much more importantly we also feel all the emotions and the pains and joys of everyone that we affected in our lives, even out to the second and third levels of these effects that we had on other people. So if indeed OBL planned attacks which resulted in the deaths of 3000 Americans, he will feel not only each of their deaths as if it is happening to him personally, but he will experience all the grief of those they loved – not just the initial grief, but all the grief since. He will literally become each widowed spouse, each bereft parent, and each devastated, orphaned child. If you were hoping for his punishment, then what worse punishment than that can you imagine?

    2) We are asked to forgive everyone who ever wronged us. He will experience again the terror of that raid, and he will look into the eyes of the young men who killed them. He will be told that it is his task now to forgive them completely and from his heart.

    3) Finally, we are asked to forgive ourselves. From his new perspective in the minds of each of the people that he harmed in life and all those who loved them and grieved their loss, he will be asked to forgive himself for everything that he did to them. Perhaps you think the man is so evil that he could do that easily, but things look very different from the perspective of the Summerland and from the viewpoints of those that we have wronged. He will be given as much guidance and counseling as he needs to work toward this task of forgiving himself, but it will not be easy! And if he finds himself unable to forgive himself completely for the pain that he himself is feeling, then his spiritual vibratory level will slow and he will drift down toward the outer darkness, into the horror of wailing demons and far away from those he loves.

    So you see, dear Cromulent, indeed there is justice. None of us can know what is happening to OBL now, but the afterlife evidence suggests that judging others should never be our focus, anyway. Instead, as Jesus tells us in the Gospels, we need to work on learning how to better forgive even crazies like OBL, so we will be able to enter our own deaths with a longstanding habit of automatic forgiveness. Like OBL, we each will face our own judgment. And for none of us is it going to be easy!
  3. LunaKat

    LunaKat New Member

    Cromulent from the NDEs I've read in books over the years, Roberta is right. Granted, what OBL did was the worst to humanity but if we dwell on it and we judge it, we harm ourselves. The NDEs always point to not judging. Mostly because the way we judge others, we will be judged. So if we judge him in anger or hate, when we review our own lives, we will be judged as harshly.

    I just kinda figure he might not have an easy transition and while there are no hellfire and brimstone type hells...there is a hell of the mind a person can go through. When he is faced with a love that is so great that it cannot even be described, he will have to judge his actions against that. I can't imagine it will be comfortable.

    Some people say there are helpers on the Other side to counsel souls and also spiritual classes there to grow. Maybe he will need extra of that..I don't know. But its best if we don't worry too much about it. Theres a further caution in Christianity (of which I'm no longer part of but it makes sense) and that is all "sins" (errors or ignorance) are the same. No one is worse than another..hard thing in this case to swallow but thats what has been said. Hope this helps.
  4. Cromulent

    Cromulent New Member

    To be honest, I sort of expected a response along these lines-- I actually went and bought a copy of TFoD, basically out of morbid (no pun intended) curiosity. It's nice to see that you've actually taken the time to think this whole scenario through, even if many of the premises on which it rests are a bit hard to swallow. I'm still unclear on some of the basic points of this process, however:

    You've said that a person's intense feelings of guilt can be enough to redirect a person to the "outer darkness" upon death. So, exactly who is experiencing this guilt? Does this fate derive solely from the clouded judgement of the meat-masked mind at the moment of physical death, or does that self-incrimination somehow carry over into the spiritual being that supposedly bursts forth upon death? I was under the impression that the spirit was a more, well, cognizant being than any living brain could encapsulate, and it seems like the moment of death would be accompanied by an epiphanic realization of the (in)significance of all of our petty foibles in the grand scheme of things. Do we carry on into the afterlife as the same jerks/dolts/nitwits/etc. that we were in life, suffering potentially horrific metaphysical consequences as a result?

    That almost seems worse than the "literal hell" scenario. Upon death, a kind-hearted person who was a bit too hard on herself would end up suffering terribly (perhaps for aeons), while a smug sociopath would traipse blithely into the shimmering heavens with a conscience as clear as his roster of selfless deeds.

    Should we begin administering massive doses of cocaine to people on their deathbeds so they can traverse the ephemeral veil with any nasty self-critical tendencies safely suppressed until they're in safe harbors? Seems like a good way to head off a lot of suffering, under this arrangement.
  5. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    You ask some interesting technical questions, Cromulent! I don't think that anyone has certain answers, but based on the afterlife evidence I have some pretty good hunches. Here goes:

    1) It does appear to be the "meat-masked mind" (as you call it) that makes guilt-based judgments. Of course, once we are out of the body we no longer have that meat-masked mind, but we are the same people that we were before death. And if we feel sufficiently guilty - whether or not that guilt is justified, or even rational - then there is a risk that we will immediately condemn ourselves to the outer darkness level.

    2) Yes, we do carry on as "the same jerks/dolts/nitwits/etc." This is something that often astonishes the recently-dead, who had expected death to bring enlightenment. It doesn't. So it's up to us to try to get our enlightenment while we are still here!

    3) Yes, a kind-hearted person who feels guilty could condemn himself. Theoretically. I don't consider this likely, however. Spiritual growth is what it's all about, and someone who is truly kind-hearted is going to be fairly well developed spiritually, so once out of the body and in the presence of loved ones I doubt that such a person would feel bleak enough and guilty enough in an abstract way to detour before reaching the Summerland levels. Once in the Summerland and going through a life-review, that feeling of guilt might well surface, but there would be lots of counseling and patient love available to help him get past it.

    4) Massive doses of cocaine won't help! There is evidence that once we leave our bodies we are at once free of the effects of brain-altering substances, so dosing the dying with happy-pills won't help them avoid a guilt-based detour. It could, however, cause them to become earthbound, since one of the things that seems to cause people to resist transitioning is a yearning for earth-pleasures to which they have become emotionally addicted.

    - I hope this helps to answer your questions, dear Cromulent!
  6. Cromulent

    Cromulent New Member

    Thanks for clarifying that, Roberta, although I was hoping for answers that would involve a little less ad hoc patching. Ah, well-- like you say, nobody really knows the full truth yet.

    I've been dancing around this last question for a while, mainly because it's strictly philosophical: all of this, the entire death-afterlife-rebirth system, was specifically put into place by the god/mind/thing at the center of reality, correct? If so, why is it even possible for people to get "earthbound" or mired in the "outer darkness" if these are not conducive to the ultimate goal of each spirit's existence? It just seems so out-of-place in the afterlife you've otherwise described. It's like putting a paved playground next to a busy highway, but leaving out any guardrails, fences, or even painted lines that might keep stray cars from plowing into a pack of terrified toddlers.

    Unless, of course, the suffering of the self-damned is meant to be instructive for everyone else...
  7. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    You ask a wonderful question, dear Cromulent. After I had spent decades studying afterlife evidence and found the evidence to be so detailed and so consistent that I could practically move right in and study the afterlife from the inside-out, a few nagging questions still remained. And the biggest one of all was: Why?

    Some people answer that question by saying that God wants or needs the experience of personal growth, so He gets Himself born repeatedly as us. But the afterlife evidence reveals a God so loving and so already perfect that not only does God seem not to need our experiences, but it is hard to imagine that a God so loving would allow human suffering that He could easily end. So – again – Why??

    The best answer that I have ever found comes from A Course in Miracles. In fact, the Course fits the afterlife evidence so well – and it so perfectly answers all my remaining questions – that I am confident that it really is the channeled work of a very advanced being. Purportedly that being is Jesus Himself, dictating in the 1960s a restatement and completion of His Gospel teachings. I have no trouble believing that the Course came from Jesus, and if you understand the esteem in which I hold our Wayshower and Best Friend you will realize how wonderful the Course seems to me. If you do nothing else in this lifetime, working through A Course in Miracles is your one imperative!

    So, what does the Course tell us?

    Amazingly, it tells us that the universe is a long-ago random mistake. God had a wisp of a thought that separation might be possible; and since Mind is so creative, that thought made separation happen. God said the divine equivalent of “Oops!” and ended the separation at once. So every bit of separated Mind – even Osama bin Laden; even Hitler – is long since safely back in God. The universe was over as soon as it began.

    But in that micro-instant of separation were created the illusions of matter, energy, space, and – most importantly – time. So although the universe was over long ago, within time we think it still continues! The afterlife levels are the process by which God ended the separation long ago, by rescuing each bit of separated Mind. So within this illusion of a universe that no longer objectively exists and can reasonably be said never to have existed, each bit of Mind – each one of us – helps one another to grow spiritually toward our inevitable reunion with God. If we choose, we can delay our rescue by putting ourselves into the outer darkness or becoming earthbound for a time. But nothing can prevent the inevitable outcome. We know that each of us will be rescued within time, because long ago we all were rescued outside of time. But within this illusion of time, that last bit of rescuing could take what we would think of as a near-eternity.

    It doesn’t matter, of course, because we are not here at all. Everything – including the afterlife levels – is just illusion. It is only our belief in this illusory reality (and especially our belief in the illusion of time) which keeps it going. We are all long since safely back in God, dear friend. We only think we are here!

    Boggling, right?

    Yes, it is boggling. But it explains so much! Why is the universe so imperfect? Why does God allow suffering? What is the point of the afterlife spiritual growth process? What is the true meaning of life? It answers all of our questions, and more.

    Only God is real. And God is timeless and perfect. Each of us is part of God, and we are also part of each other. As soon as we really get that fact, this illusion of a universe will be no more!
  8. Andrew

    Andrew Guest


    Since I joined the forums earlier this week, this I've spent hours reading all the brilliant questions, answers, and experiences here! I've read TFoD and Your Eternal Self, and now I think I'll just have to get A Course in Miracles! Let me get this straight though, we are all here because God accidentally separated us from Him? I thought you said that the evidence shows that God is perfect?

    Also I have another question: when we are part of Him, before this all happened (and as we are now I guess), were still individual personalities and souls, or did that come about after God thought about separation? Also, when we do finally become One again, will we still be ourselves, or will be just cease to counsciously exist somehow?

    Also, just to clarify, the authors of the book believe Jesus inspired them to write it?

    (Life Through all Time)
  9. papajohn

    papajohn New Member

    Mind boggling?? Yeah I'd say. So let me get this right. My wife dies, I'm here, but it doesn't matter because this is just an illusion because I'm already back with God so that means while I'm typing this I'm really with my wife. Okay. That made no sense what I just wrote. I just talked talked to my son on the phone in S.C. But I didn't really because he's really already back with God with me and his mom. Okay that didn't sound right. This illusion stuff messes me all up. This is where I get off. I get the different vibrations that constitute different levels. I even get how our guilt can keep us from progressing. I am even starting to understand how the law of cause and effects works. I'm am not getting this illusion stuff.
    Here is another hypothetical. Evidence tells us that in the Summerland levels what ever we want we just think it. Okay when I move on my 1st wants me,but I want my 2nd wife,except she wants her 1st husband who really wants his 2nd wife but she wants someone totally different. It dosen't matter because it's all an illusion. WHO"S ON FIRST!!
  10. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    What great questions, dear InAevumVita!

    A Course in Miracles was dictated in the 1960s to a Jewish woman in NYC named Helen Schucman who was able to take shorthand. She began to hear this voice in her head, and she just took its dictation and then transcribed its words. Some of what she got was personal, but most of it clearly shaped itself into this extraordinary set of books which she eventually showed to her friend, William Thetford. He saw how amazing this material was - he realized it could not have come from Helen - and he became its first editor. The voice in Helen's head called himself J, and he spoke in extraordinarily beautiful Elizabethan English. When Helen asked him why she had been chosen for what she soon came to see as a burden as well as a blessing, the voice simply said, "You were willing." This project consumed the rest of her life and Thetford's, and since the early seventies these three books (which come to you in single blue volume) have gradually gained increasing acceptance. If the Gospels were very simplified teachings designed for primitive iron-age people, then the Course is so advanced that it is impossible for most of us to grasp its principles without months and years of study-group work. It is tough, but it's worth it! There are study groups all over the world, and nearly all Unity Churches are very much into the Course and can help you with it. Because the Course fits the afterlife evidence like the last piece of a complicated puzzle, while at the same time completing the Gospel teachings of Jesus on love and forgiveness, I believe that it came from Jesus. Although that doesn't really matter. Indisputably, it came from God!

    Yes, God is perfect. God doesn't make mistakes. The way the Course puts it is that "into the mind of the Son of God came a tiny, mad idea at which the Son of God forgot to laugh." It is all God so I don't make that distinction between Father and Son, but Whoever had the thought that separation might be possible was part of infinitely creative Mind. So that thought gave rise to the universe, and God had to take over and end it immediately. Immediately. In eternity, it was as if nothing had happened! But since that bit of Mind was so creative, all it took was that speck of an instant of separation for the universe - including time - to arise. I know how insane this sounds at first, but once I understood this teaching of the Course it made so many other things make sense that until some better explanation comes along, I am sticking with this one!

    One of the main things that A Course in Miracles is about is the undoing of the ego, so as you begin to really understand these teachings, your ego overwhelms you with fear. It happens to everyone. The ego is being extinguished - which mean that "I" am being extinguished. I will cease to be! More experienced students in your study group will help you through this fear phase, but I warn you: it is terrible. How can you want to rejoin God if rejoining God will mean there will be no more you??

    I remember vividly how I got past the fear. One night on my knees I simply gave it to God. I told God that this fear of being extinguished was beating me, and that I wanted to do His will and know the truth and undo the ego and all the things that I should be doing... but, God, I cannot bear to cease to exist! I was steeped in the afterlife evidence, after all - I had begun the Course believing that I would live and be aware forever - and now this! It was really the extinction of awareness that was my core fear, and it was terrible. I remember praying, and I remember lying awake, but eventually I slept. Then I woke up the next morning to brilliant sunshine with a new joyous certainty that came straight from God: I would be aware forever. I would have God's awareness. In rejoining God, we give up nothing. We become God! This may or may not be a teaching of the Course, but it is a core certainty of my life now. From that wonderful morning maybe five years ago, I have never again feared anything!

    As I write this, it occurs to me to add that this undoing of the ego (to the extent that we are able to undo it while here) may be the best fruit of doing the Course. You simply cannot be hurt or offended by others any more - you see each other person in a halo of love - you begin to be able to love and forgive as you never could do either when you were so bound up with ego. You become so much happier! I have so many real friends now, when for most of my life I was too bound up in Roberta to focus enough on others to really have true friends. What you learn when you finally get out of your own way is that the only joy there is on earth is the joy that you find in loving and forgiving, and the more of each you do the more joyful you feel!

    The afterlife evidence is consistent in telling us that we are on earth to grow spiritually, and the core spiritual earth-lessons are love and forgiveness. What the evidence doesn't say, however - and what I can now assure you is true - is that spiritual growth is the only source of real happiness. Nothing else compares with it!
  11. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    PapaJohn, you are such a hoot! I could boggle you more by telling you that the Course teaches that even the other people around you are projections of your own mind, made up by you as a way to escape your own feelings of guilt. You imagine other people and imagine that they are doing bad things so you can be happily mad at them and you yourself can feel blameness! One of the things that students of the Course use as a punchline to each other is, "After all, there is only one of us here. And it's me." Then they all laugh.

    Actually, my precious friend, you are with your wife probably every night. While our bodies sleep, we go to the afterlife levels to visit with our loved ones and consult with our guides and take courses and enjoy a bit of R&R. And the kind of exclusive relationships that we have on earth simply don't exist in the Summerland: both you and your wife will have lots of friends of both genders (gender being irrelevant there), and there will be no jealousies. I could tease you that you will all live together in one big house, but actually what seems more common is for us to live with an earth-relative or two initially, but then to perhaps want our own little house for awhile, and tend our gardens and maybe do things with various loved ones as the spirit moves us. Nowhere on earth is there the kind of soul-deep personal freedom that we all will enjoy after we graduate!

    I hope that everyone who reads these words will make an effort to find an A Course in Miracles study group. Doing the Course will change your life for the better in so many ways!
  12. Cromulent

    Cromulent New Member

    So... the long and the short of it, basically, is that the entire mind-blastingly vast sweep of existence (both space and time) is... hypothetical.

    Something like this.

    And God saw what he had made, and He said "Um, I meant to do that. Really."

    This is one of those places where we'll probably have to agree to disagree, Roberta. You and I are evidently having different arguments, while facing one another and standing close enough that it appears we're addressing one another.

    I can live with that.
  13. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Yes, Cromulent. Only God is real. God is infinitely powerful, infinitely loving Mind, and each of us is a part of that Mind. All the rest - the universe, the afterlife, everything - is imagined by us. Only God is real!

    I now better understand why A Course in Miracles tells us that it was the Son of God who had the "tiny, mad idea" that separation might be possible. God knows everything, so God would know that separation, although possible, is a bad idea; but a less perfect Child of God might be like a toddler playing with matches: He started the fire because He didn't know better. God, then - the grown-up - stepped in immediately and ended that instant of separation. Whether God then lectured the Son to "Never do that again or no supper for You, Young Man!" is not recorded.

    Your presence here as our resident skeptic is immensely valuable, dear Cromulent! Thank you for prodding us this way, and thank you for your grace in agreeing to disagree so often. Without your input, these forums would be much the poorer!
  14. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Thanks for your response, Roberta. I just got the book yesterday, it looks interesting. So Jesus wasn't always perfect?
  15. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Hi InAevumVita! Even the most traditional mainstream Christians see Jesus as "fully man" as well as "fully God," which suggests that He cannot always have been perfect or He could not be fully human. Jesus is mentioned fairly often in the afterlife literature, and while I haven't seen this question asked and answered directly, here is what I have deduced:

    1) Jesus is a powerful perfected being. There are hints that He went through the same sorts of life-lessons that we are going through now, and He aced them pretty quickly. He could then have ceased all contact with us and rejoined God in eternal perfection, but instead He chose to try to rescue the rest of us. Some channeled sources have told us that the same being who came to us as Jesus has come to us at other times in His ongoing effort to help us to grow spiritually, and some of these incarnations became other religious figures, of whom Siddhartha (the Buddha) is the one most commonly mentioned. It is even said that it was in His incarnation as Siddhartha that Jesus attained spiritual perfection. I don't think it is possible to know for sure what the history of Jesus's Spirit may have been, but I am confident that He is as human as we are. So He was not always perfect.

    2) God is wholly Spirit. Unlike Jesus, God is not material and nothing about God is human. God is powerful eternal Spirit. So what I said above about God's maybe taking the Son of God to the woodshed over inadvertently creating the universe was said in jest - there is no evidence that God has ever shown anger, or that God is even capable of feeling any emotion less perfect than supreme love. Apparently eternal Mind is highly emotional, which helps to explain our own extremes of emotion - but while we can feel and express a range of emotions, there is no evidence that eternal Mind (or God) can feel anything but love. As I have said elsewhere, in doing A Course in Miracles I have begun to understand how that is possible! We think that anger and hatred are normal, but in fact they are pathological, and as we grow spiritually we gradually lose the ability to feel negative emotions. (I used to have a pretty bad temper, and the memory of it is like the memory of having had an inconvenient illness which kept messing with my life. When the worst anger that you ever feel is a rare bit of irritation that just makes you smile, you are so much happier!)

    3) The "Son of God" mentioned in A Course in Miracles is not necessarily Jesus. Rather, it seems to be all mankind, although I am not sure about that. In some way that isn't clear to me, the potentiality for Sonship exists within God, and it was this potentiality which gave rise to the universe. I think.

    4) You might say that "Jesus is us." If you read the Gospels closely, you see Him repeatedly and in various ways telling His followers that just as He is the Son of God, so also are they. He seems to make no difference between Himself and others except for the fact that He is spiritually perfected... but He knows that we will all get there, too. And He continues to work to try to hasten that process! There are many accounts of people seeing Jesus in the Summerland levels, especially helping confused people who are unreceptive to anyone else and also helping and enjoying children. He seems not to make Himself much of a "big shot" there, even though He is always surrounded by people adoring Him (as you can imagine!.) He laughs a lot. He seems to those who see Him to be gloriously happy and perfectly at peace and infinitely loving and patient. Oddly, those who describe Him physically say that He has blue eyes and light hair - I don't know what to make of that.

    I hope this answers your question, InAevumVita! Jesus is one of us. Now and forever, He is our Wayshower and Best Friend.
  16. VioletRose

    VioletRose New Member

    Jesus staying on to help everyone else ascend actually makes a lot of sense to me. What doesn't make sense is the idea that anyone who is "perfected" enough to ascend and rejoin God would have done so already: if you've developed your ability to love to that extent, how could you stand to leave any of your fellow spirits behind in this universe? Wouldn't that be a contradiction? In other words, it seems to me that nobody will ever actually reach God's level until everybody is ready. Am I making any sense? ;)
  17. rasputin

    rasputin New Member

    This is particularly interesting, since I have often wondered what happens to those who appear to not have a soul. I see a news story about a person being executed, for example, for murdering and raping children and other horrendous crimes. What becomes of them? These people are obviously socio-paths, and as such, do not possess the hard-ware for attributes such as guilt, remorse, and even love. I can only suspect that they simply do not exist after their deaths. As I get older, I am becoming more and more skeptical about the after-life, and I think it is because of all of the unanswered questions that I have accumluated over the years. It appears as though we are left with only speculation.
    Amore likes this.
  18. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Hi Rasputin! Welcome to the Afterlife Forums! This certainly is a great question that you have asked, dear friend! I'll do my best to answer it based on what the evidence tells us:

    1. Concerning souls:
    The evidence suggests that, not only does everyone have a soul, but also that everyone survives death. No one is going to simply cease to exist after death. Death is not more than transition into the next phase of life. Actually, we spend much more time in the afterlife than we ever will on earth - that is our true home! That is true for the best and the worst of humanity. I have never seen any evidence that suggests anyone could be born without a soul, or that anyone isn't an eternal being. Now, that's not to say that criminals are off the hook.

    2. The fate of such people
    You may find it easier to believe that murderers simply cease to exist when they die, but that would be too easy on them. After death, everyone must go through a life review. God isn't the judge though, we are our own judges. Isn't that wonderful! We will have to watch what is essentially a movie of our lives and we will be able to feel exactly how our actions affected others, whether that's good or bad. At the end, we are asked to forgive everyone in our life, and then we are asked to do the hardest thing we will ever have to do: forgive ourselves. If we can forgive ourselves for everything that we've done in our life, then we can move into the Summerland (basically heaven). Most people can do this. People who murder though, almost always have problems with forgiving themselves. This even works with people who don't appear to be capable of showing remorse.

    3. Lack of remorse:
    It appears that not being able to feel remorse is a handicap that, like any other problem with have, is something we choose to be born with. Sociopaths choose not to be able to feel remorse before they are born in order to help them learn certain lessons while they are here. When they die though, normal feeling are restored to them and they will have to come to grips with the actions they committed during life. Don't worry, dear friend, everyone get's justice!

    4. Love and forgiveness:
    It is our duty to try our hardest not to hate these types of people or to hold grudges against them. Not for their sake, but for ours. As I mentioned before, we must forgive everyone in life, so why not start now? A lot of people who commit awful crimes simply aren't as advanced as the average person is because they haven't been through as many lifetimes as most of us have. Really, we all have committed awful crimes like murder during one life or another. I'm not saying that murder is okay, far from it, but I am saying that we should try to forgive those who do it.

    I hope this helps to address your concerns, dear friend!
  19. EternalLife

    EternalLife New Member

    Where's Osama

    A: Yes, I agree that there are many things that don't appear to make sense at present. That is because as travelers from the world of Spirit, from whence we came, we are experiencing things in this dimension which is not our true home. We shall return to our true home, in Heaven, at our appointed time and then things will make much better sense.The things we could not grasp at this time will become lucidly clear in the Afterlife.
  20. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    You are right, dear EternalLife. There is indeed a reason for everything and those reasons will become apparent in time. :)

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