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sceptical question on signs

Discussion in 'General Afterlife Discussions' started by Storybud68, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. Storybud68

    Storybud68 Member

    I recently was talking to someone about my uncle Frank who has just passed away a few weeks ago,anyway I was talking to this other person about not getting a siign from him,then a small white feather floated down beside me.My point is that if he really did send that feather why not send lots of them at the same time floating all around me,then I would know it was him.I guess what I'm saying is why not make these signs more obvious or is it a case of that he is only allowed say send one feather,because if it was me sending them down I would make sure it was a huge sign so they would know it was me.this could apply to other signs also ,surely if you can send one feather you could send lots together. Your views greatly appreciated .
     
  2. Monika

    Monika Active Member

    To my opinion is not them sending feathers to us. They dont drop them. Same like they dont drop coins and whatsoever. They simply draw our attention to something close by. If there is a feather and someone wants to show that he or she is around they send a thought to look down or to the side or whatever. For me it is clear when the feather is a sign. There are many of them around, i see them everyday but just small amount of them is shown by Michel as a sign. Its like you get "poked" from somewhere and then suddenly notice the feater what had to be a sign from loved one :)
     
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  3. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Well, I have a few things to say about this. The first thing is that if it helps someone to believe that a feather or a coin or a dragonfly or whatever is a sign from a dead loved one, then I'm not going to tell her/him that it isn't a sign. I don't know if it is actually a sign or not, but if it helps them then it still serves a good purpose, and continuing to live when your loved one (especially your spouse/partner or child, IMHO) has died is incredibly horrific, so if believing in a sign or signs helps, then go ahead and believe.

    That said -- I do not think that every feather or coin or dragonfly or whatever is a sign from a dead loved one. I honestly don't know if anything is a sign, because I don't know if there is an afterlife in which our dead loved ones still exist and from which they can send us signs. For myself, while I appreciate anything that might be a sign, and I thank my husband for each possible sign even though I don't know if that's actually what they are or if they are just coincidences, I need more. I need real proof. I am sick of existing on the possible hope of scraps of signs, I just want to be with him again and forever.
     
  4. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I'm similarly unpersuaded that every apparent sign is an actual one....

    But I have moved away from my earlier approach of thinking that mostly it was wishful thinking by the person reporting the occurrence. And in the past I've made points similar to David's. If our unseen, loved ones can send one feather - easily able to be discounted as a chance event - why can't they send something much less easy to discount?

    Monika makes a good point that items are not sent so much as it's our attention being drawn to something unusual and thereby intended to be evidential. How that works out can be seen in accounts we hear; some individuals are absolutely convinced by what they consider as a sign yet others harbor doubts and uncertainties. Not an ideal way to convey the message of survival. :(
     
  5. Storybud68

    Storybud68 Member

    I agree with mac,sometimes I often wander are there like rules in the afterlife ,or else maybe they would love to be able to send an indisputable sign rather than ust scraps of signs or there just not able to maybe they don't have enough energy ,I think robin's feathers coins,we see all these things anyway but when in grief we look for these things more because we are desperate for something.david
     
  6. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Precisely (italics/bold in mac's comment are mine).
     
  7. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    As I see it, there are three possibilities (listed below in no particular order).

    1. There is no such thing as an afterlife. When we die that's it, we cease to be in every way. If this is the case, then the things people see as signs are only wishful thinking on their part, and since one usually doesn't encounter a mass of feathers floating in the air in the normal course of things, that's why it doesn't happen (it isn't usual, and there is no soul to make it happen as a sign). It is impossible for someone who does not exist to send signs. I hope this one is not the case, but I cannot help but worry that it is.

    2. There is an afterlife, but our dead loved ones are not able to send us anything other than tiny signs because they don't have the energy to do so, or they can't affect things on this planet or plane of existence, or something along those lines. If this is the case, then I suppose any possible sign, no matter how small, is something of a miracle.

    3. There is an afterlife, but it has a rule or a set of rules which preclude our dead loved ones being able to show us signs....maybe because it would make it harder for them to exist there, or because it is thought it would make it harder for us to exist here (which would not be true for me, nor for most people I think, but god or the universe or whatever made the rules might think it would), or for some reason that I cannot imagine. If this is the case, then that is seriously messed up, in my opinion. If there is some sort of god who made that rule, then to me that is just another indication that it is either cruel or incompetent, possibly both. If it is, instead, a rule of physics or of the operation of the universe/existence, then I don't suppose it would do any good to rail against it, but I still hate it. Probably doesn't do any good to rail against it if it's a rule created by a god, either, but at least that god will then know my view on it.

    There may be other possibilities that I am forgetting or which have not yet occurred to me; if anyone else thinks of any, I would be interested to read them. Whatever the case, if there is an afterlife then I think the fact that people cannot or do not (or are not allowed to) know, beyond any doubt whatsoever, that their dead loved ones do still exist, are still themselves, are happy, and that they will be reunited with them, is either the biggest flaw in the way existence operates, or is the mark of a cruel or incompetent god. If there is an afterlife, I hope it is just the biggest flaw, as to me that is less horrific than the existence of a cruel or incompetent god. Regardless, I think you are right Storybud, in that grieving people look for signs because they (we) are desperate for some proof of the continued existence of our loved ones. I know that is true of me, but at the same time I cannot accept little things like a butterfly or the like as proof, especially if I haven't just said/thought to my husband "Please make a green butterfly fly by me, as a sign of your continued existence", and then have that happen, because butterflies fly by every day as just part of normal life. Pennies are found on the sidewalk as just part of normal life. Etc. I don't want to dissuade anyone else from accepting those things as proof -- hell, I envy them their ability to do so. But for me, I need more. That is not my husband's fault, if in fact he does continue to exist in an afterlife, and I don't blame him. It's just that his continued existence, and he & I being together again, is quite literally the most important thing in the universe/existence to me, and so I can't just assume that every random coin or feather is actually a sign, I need to know that he still exists, and that we will be together again.
     
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  8. Storybud68

    Storybud68 Member

    very well wrote bluebird and i totally agree on everything you said ,it is scary to me that your number 1 point is a very real possibility, no matter how much I want to believe in the afterlife I'm logical enough to know that some things are just not signs,for example feathers are already in our subcouncioius because of Angels etc,so without even realising we are looking for theses things as a sign .
     
  9. Monika

    Monika Active Member

    I think that all loved ones constantly send signs for their loves left behind here (i would say i know this exactly because Michel told me so but i know that you won't really believe so i just leave this here..). I think it is not them who dont send signs it is us who are not able to receive them. I see some people being sad that they dont get a sign but not really trying to do anything about that (im not speaking about you guys from this forrum because here everyone seems in a search of own ways). As i understand the main stoppers to see the signs are mind and emotions. I have learned on my way that as soon as i start to question, getting frustrated of being not able to see and hug Michel, being too tired, i dont get any sign. If i am very sad and just cry and question why the hell this had to happen to us, i dont receive any sign. In mornings i also dont receive them only because every morning is a horrible pain (like for most of us here probably). If i take myself to hands and say ok, ill push one more day forward to you. I can not see you but i feel you. Then i just start simple conversation in my mind with Michel like we would speak if he would be here. Minute after minute go by and i become calm, confident, ready to go through this day. And then signs begin. Not begin, but finally i can receive them because somehow moved into other stage with much more silent mind. Our souls know that we will meet and it is just mind who question everything and if its possible to silence it then as i understand and experience we can recognize signs. The only thing i dont do is that i never look around. Never ever search for any feather, coin or whatsoever. I know that when Michel will show me a sign using something like that, he will tell me where to look. Anyway he is not very often using this method to show the sign. When i am in a very good emotional and mental conditions without any doubts and so on then i can ask Michel for signs and get them instantly because then for me its so easy to receive them. Sadly it is quite hard to stay at this level long for me. I can do this easier when im alone. If i spend time alone i can be there longer. But it is not easy when i need to go to work and so on. Weekends are great :) Mondays suck. For me. And i know how much Michel loved and loves me so why he would not send me signs. And what for power could ever interupt the strongest connection between two lovers? Why this power would even try to destruct something what is most pure? No, that dont carry any logic to me. Our doubtfull minds are our worst enemy. Well, at least mine... :(
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
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  10. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I've been trying to get a fix on this matter of signs and symbols (s&s) and how they relate to our approach to the afterlife situation. :confused:

    It seems to me such debates/discussions will lead nowhere unless those discussing the possibility that feathers are signs etc. are first persuaded about the fundamental issue, that of our survival beyond death. Otherwise it seems as illogical to me as my debating the way karma operates would be when I'm not persuaded about karma in the first place. (at least the way it's commonly portrayed.) I hope that doesn't sound dismissive because it's not intended to be, rather the reverse.

    It seems to me that when folk debate s&s issues they have accepted - perhaps tacitly and even reluctantly - that survival and the so-called afterlife are fact although that fact doesn't lend itself to being proven in this dimension. Some, perhaps many of us here, have been persuaded - are able to accept - that there's overwhelming evidence about the situation. And that may be as close as they'll ever get to proof until, unless, they experience personal events - yet it works for them. :)
     
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  11. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Everyone, we are told that these small signs - feathers, coins - are often apports, objects de-materialized somewhere else and materialized here by our loved ones. I have seen their arrivals described: a coin, for example, is seen to materialize in thin air and drop to the ground or onto a table. Apparently it takes a lot of energy to do this, which is why they can't send a cloud of feathers or a fistful of coins. Just FYI. I know the dead can do this, but can't say for certain that any particular coin or feather is in fact a sign!
     
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  12. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Apports may, or may not, be evidential but accounts indicate they have often been received - but not always - in the presence of individuals who already persuaded about the aspect of survival. Sometimes they have appeared in great abundance to experimental groups or to those sitting for other purposes. Essentially, though, to experienced individuals without doubt about the so-called afterlife and the nature and purpose of the apported tokens. In such situations they're not intended to be evidential.

    The context of signs and symbols is very important and likely to be highly personal. Personally I'd be more likely to be persuaded of evidentiality if an object had special relevance to an individual and/or if it had appeared in an unusual position where it might not have been expected. A feather on the ground or in one's home might be there for entirely mundane reasons rather than having been asported from some remote location to then be re-materialised as an indication of a loved one's presence.

    As for the reported appearance of unusual living things such as butterflies (as a sign or symbol) well if apportation is as difficult and energy-intensive as we're told then asporting a living object from its usual habitat, keeping it alive in the process and then re-materialising it in that condition sounds decidely iffy to me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
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  13. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Agreed.
     
  14. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    The most spectacular signs I have ever received (or even heard of) were from my mother, a few days after her death. I can't recall the order now, and I don't have time to look it up, but a few days after her death she filled my hot August Texas backyard with (I think) dragonflies. Nothing else was flying anywhere else in my neighborhood - I checked! - but just my backyard was thick with thousands of dragonflies all afternoon. Then the next day, no dragonflies but literally thousands of butterflies filled my backyard for hours! Again, nowhere else. On the third day it was dragonflies once again. And when I went outside on the fourth day around noontime - I couldn't wait to see what she would do now! - no insects at all. Then a dragonfly and a butterfly flew right beside one another in formation in front of my face, from right to left. I don't think I saw a single insect for the rest of that month!
     
  15. Janet

    Janet New Member

    Roberta, that is awesome! And thank you for being such a crusadress for the afterlife! :)
     
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  16. DenverGuy

    DenverGuy Active Member

    Bluebird, very well said. There were many good responses to your post, but I wanted to throw this out there.

    Number one scares the hell out of me. I wish could come up with a scholarly response but I can't. I just really want to believe but need some kind of proof, just like as many others do.

    If there is an afterlife as so often described our loved ones have to see how this has affected us. I would also think they would know how beneficial it would be to us if they could provide proof positive of their continued existence. If lingering doubt is removed from the equation life might be a little easier for most of us.

    A few days after I lost my girlfriend in June of 2016 a bird nest appeared over my front door. It was VERY unusual. I kept the nest, of course, after it had been long-abandoned. But wonder if it was a sign (believable), and if so, why has there been nothing like that since?

    I hate that part.
     
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  17. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    DenverGuy,

    Number one scares the hell out of me, too. I can't dismiss it as a possibility, because it is a possibility, but I hope it is not the case.

    I agree that if there is an afterlife then our loved ones must know how horribly their deaths affect (some of) us. I know that if my husband still exists then he wants to relieve or at least diminish my pain, and I have had things happen which may very well be signs from him, but I need proof. I don't blame my husband for the lack of absolute proof, I think it comes down to the laws of the universe or of some "god" or the like (if indeed there is an afterlife at all in which my husband exists and from which he can try to communicate with me). If lingering doubt were removed, my life would absolutely be a bit easier. I know some would say that such proof would make me want to die right now to be with him, but the fact is that I already feel that way, and have done since the moment he died, so knowing he exists in an afterlife and that we will be together again would not be the cause of my feeling this way. What it would do would be to give me a little bit of hope, of which I have had none since my husband died nearly six years ago.
     
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  18. I agree with you BB . My life has been so rough though that not even #1 scares me anymore . I SURE can relate to " If there is an afterlife then our loved ones must know how horribly their deaths affect ( some of ) us . Some days when it's REALLY bad I think do you enjoy seeing me like this or what ? I hate to sound so mean too but this is horrible and to hear others speak of it they are up there doing all kinds of things , happy as all get out with their loved ones and no more worries . While I am seriously very happy about everything they are experiencing , it also makes me feel a little forgotten really . That's sounds really selfish but he is up there having a blast and I am worried about where I am going to live if this forest fire gets much closer and I can barely get out of bed most days . I have started getting emails at 8:08 every am and pm for jobs located in the small town he is buried ( this started July 1) and I never signed up for any job board . It's not even spam, and really wildly colored feathers ( that I admit I look up the meanings ) , I am just desperate I guess.
     
  19. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    GoldDustWoman,

    The idea of the first possibility (there being no afterlife at all) terrifies me, as I truly hope my husband and I (and our other loved ones) will be together and happy in an afterlife -- but I would still prefer my own complete nonexistence to the "life" I have now, without him. I don't think our dead loved ones enjoy seeing us in pain, though I can understand why you might feel that way sometimes. I hope my husband is happy and well in an afterlife, but even if he is I know that he also feels for me, and knows how much I hate life now. I hope I am not causing him pain, but I do think he worries about me (again, assuming that there is an afterlife at all). I don't think they have forgotten about us, though, I just don't know if there's much they can actually do to help us. Personally, I don't take anyone's word for it regarding what our dead loved ones are doing, if there is an afterlife in which they exist. Maybe they know what some people are doing, perhaps their own dead loved ones and/or a few others they have encountered. Maybe they even know what it is like for a few groups of people. But the fact remains that I know my husband better than anyone in existence, and while I truly hope he is happy and well, I also know that he wouldn't be completely light-hearted and just going about his "day" when he knows I am in pain. I know him. I'm sure it is the same for you, and for anyone who has had a loved one die. We know them best.

    I'm sorry to hear that you are near the forest fire, too. Is there anyone there (friends/family/church/police) who can help you get away if need be? I understand barely being able to get out of bed; that's how I feel most of the time, too. I have to drag myself to work four days a week, because I would lose my apartment if I didn't (wouldn't be able to pay rent), but pretty much every morning I wake up feeling anxious, upset that I didn't die peacefully during the night. Have you considered speaking to a doctor about getting some antidepressants? They won't change anything as far as bringing the dead back to life, of course, but it might balance your serotonin level and help you get through the day a bit better. Something to maybe consider, anyway.

    As far as the e-mails you're getting for jobs located in the small town where he is buried -- maybe that's a sign, maybe it isn't, I don't know and I wouldn't presume to tell you either way. I suppose it's up to you to decide that for yourself, as it's up to each of us to determine whether or not we believe a particular thing is a sign. Same thing with the feathers you're finding.
     
  20. Kurt

    Kurt Active Member

    I believe Monika is correct.
     

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