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Discussion in 'Death and Life After Death' started by mac, Nov 8, 2020.

  1. mac

    mac Staff Member

    Here in the UK today has been one of remembrance. Remembering those who died in conflicts, honoring their memory even though many have long gone from this world.

    We all hope wars will never again take so many young men and at one time it was mostly men who served and died. It's often said they gave their lives for our freedom but most didn't give their lives - their lives were taken by the conflict. I would think they were thinking of their own lives and those of loved ones when they faced death and not of millions of people in generations to follow, people they likely did not consciously know. But I get what's meant when it's said they died for us.

    But although they were lost from this world they have lived on in the next world since their passing many decades ago. It's a conundrum if we accept the notion of life-plans because that means all those individuals knew before they came to this world that they would die early in their earth lives, quickly returning to the world of the spirit.

    Can that truly be the case? Did they know before they incarnated, all the millions who died directly or indirectly as a consequence of conflict, that war would bring their end? Did they choose to come to this world knowing, agreeing, they would not grow to old age and for some not even mature adulthood? Did they choose not to see their children grow up, choose not to be with their wives as they grew old, choose not to play any part in the lives of those they would love but leave behind? If we accept the notion of life plans then the answer to all those searching questions has to be 'yes'. Even now I find that hard to accept.

    Perhaps you though, dear reader, reject all such notions and say such things do not appeal to your reason?
    baob likes this.
  2. bluebird

    bluebird Major Contributor

    It's so heart-breaking that humans keep fighting and killing each other. Hopefully at some point we will grow beyond such things. The memories of those men, as well as those of the men and women who have been killed in wars and conflicts since, should definitely be honored.

    As for the "life plan" theory -- no, I do not believe in such a thing. Assuming there is a beforelife/afterlife, then I think it's possible that some people may choose some things in their lives, maybe what their gender will be, or the country in which they'll be born, etc. More importantly, if there is a beforelife/afterlife and we are able to choose some things, then I think and hope that we can choose to have in our earthly lives, in various ways/relationships, those souls we love eternally. But as far as every person choosing every important detail and event -- no.

    Just using my own experience as an example -- I have wanted to die for the past eight years; I did NOT choose this life, nor did my husband (he would never have chosen to do anything which would devastate me as his death has done).

    On a broader scale, I do not believe that 6,000,000 Jews chose, before birth, to be gassed and shot and starved and tortured in the Holocaust, nor did the multitudes of LGBTQ people, Roma people, disabled people, etc., whom the Nazis killed. Same for the many other holocausts humans have perpetrated upon each other over the course of history.

    No child ever chose to be molested, no one chooses to be raped or beaten, etc.

    Terrible things happen in this life, too often to good, decent people. I'm not saying no one ever learns from the terrible things that happen to them -- often they do. But, possibly with a few pre-life exceptions, in my opinion people do not choose, prior to their births, to go through the horrible things. In my opinion, people who believe that they do are naively trying to wrest or assume control where none exists, because it makes them feel better. I understand the impulse, but I don't think it describes the way things truly are. I do not believe the old chestnut that "everything happens for a reason", and to me the idea of a "life-plan" is akin to that cliche.
  3. Robin

    Robin New Member

    I do find the concept of life plans a little difficult to accept. Of course if you do just accept it then it simply explains why everyones lives are the way they are. Puts it all in a neat little box if you like. For me that is one reason why I’m doubtful of it! It begs a lot of questions. For even a general life plan to play out I think it would need the collusion of the global population and natural word.
    Take the recent US election. The result will impact peoples lives on a global scale. Has everyone involved acted in a way to suit your life plan? What then of their own life plan? What about their own free will?
    I do wonder if life plans are a recent popular idea that has gained traction in the spiritual circles. Does anyone know when they were first talked about? Did it come from a reliable source.
    There is a terrible news story in the UK at the moment involving a nurse being charged with the murder of 8 babies. Her life plan? The babies life plan?
    Of course some will say she has deviated from her plan. Another convenient explanation?
    And the babies? I suppose there’s always that gem “from suffering comes great spiritual growth “. Could you imagine saying that to the parents? How stupid does that sound?!
    These are just some thoughts of mine. I would be really interested in what others think.
  4. mac

    mac Staff Member

    I share your misgivings although I am now persuaded that so-called life plans are real - just not the way we probably think. There's a similar level of misunderstanding concerning reincarnation, another old chestnut.

    The best I can come up with is that certain events in the lives of each of us are planned and events are orchestrated in some way to try to bring them about. Beyond that I have absolutely no insight - pretty myopic! I've written about this subject in the past questioning the likelihood that certain events could have been orchestrated with all the actors having chosen to play parts in line with their personal life-plans. I am still dubious, the notion failing the Silver Birch test of appealing to my reason.

    Perhaps it's one of two possibilities. Firstly that our world and our lives are vastly more pre-planned and orchestrated than we could ever begin to comprehend, almost like the most complex performance that could ever be conceived, all of us players with stage directions we follow without improvisation. Secondly that our world and our lives are simply the outcome of a complex web of interactions which hadn't been planned but within them all some personal - or even global - outcomes happening by design and actions we mostly don't get a proper view of but sometimes may get a glimpse of as things happen.

    In my life certain things have happened where I've reflected on them later and been blown away at how they worked out. Seredipity? Maybe - who knows? But even Doubting Thomas 'mac' has had to concede that the likelihood seems mighty slim they were all down to chance and coincidence.
    baob likes this.
  5. Robin

    Robin New Member

    I appreciate your thoughts Mac. Maybe the second of your scenarios is more likely. I wonder if others would like more details on how life plans actually work or are they able to just accept them. It must be an incredibly complex system to actually work in practice. I would like those who say they know this is what happens to give more detail on how it actually works as it is an extraordinary claim.
    Simply saying we make a life plan seems almost like a childlike explanation. I would love to hear a credible explanation of it.
  6. mac

    mac Staff Member

    I fear we'd both be left waiting, Robin. More likely I'll get the details only after I kick my clogs in the next decade or maybe two.
  7. bluebird

    bluebird Major Contributor

    That's horrible about the UK nurse and those poor babies. I absolutely do not believe that such horror was planned, by anyone. Either the nurse is mentally ill, or she is evil, or both. The idea of "from suffering comes great spiritual growth" can sometimes be true, for some people -- but not always, and not for everyone. My husband's death, occurring when it did, destroyed any remnant of possible faith I had in any kind of loving god. It destroyed my spirituality, it did not result in any "spiritual growth". [I know that death comes to us all, and had my husband died at 75 or 80, after we had had 50 years of marriage, then while of course I would have been sad, distraught, devastated, it would not have destroyed my soul in the way that his actual death has.]

    Anyone saying such cliched bullshit as "from suffering comes great spiritual growth" to the parents of those poor murdered children deserves to be coldcocked in the face. Even if one holds such a belief, that is not the time and place to state as much, nor the people to whom one should state it.

    [Incidentally: In my earlier post in this thread I incorrectly typed that 6,000 Jews were murdered by the Nazis during the Holocaust, rather than 6,000,000. I apologize; I knew/know the actual figure, I just mistyped and didn't catch my error, and now I can't edit that post.] (moderator note - correct number now displayed)

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