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PM...Favorite Form Of Mediumship

Discussion in 'After-Death Communication' started by STEVEN LEVEE, Mar 2, 2018.

  1. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Active Member


    STEVEN LEVEE New Member

    Mareke, I didn't realize you thought Flint a fraud! OK:(:(:(...You are sadly mistaken, my friend. (IMO of course, but...really?)
    I'm going to tell you one of the phenomenon in a Caylor seance I went to. (I agree he leaves a lot to be desired, but this happened nonetheless)....
    The building we were in was on a concrete slab.
    One of the indian materializations stomped on the floor to show the power of ectoplasm & the whole building shook like there was an earthquake.
    How did he do that?
  3. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I expect few would agree Leslie Flint was a fraud but each is entitled to their belief.

    Warren Caylor has been denounced as a fraud on various occasions and appears more a phenomenalist than a physical medium. How the phenomenon you describe above was brought about I have no idea but did he produce any survival evidence during his seance?

    Did you see whatever/whomever materialised?

    STEVEN LEVEE New Member

    In Post#15 up there I said: "There was nothing I'd call proof of the afterlife though...not in the truest sense of the word." The indian had a dimly lit light box in front of him but I couldn't see him well enough to say yes to that. I know (&30 other people know) what they felt though:)That Indian could have been Caylor for all I know;)
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  5. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I don't doubt how it felt for you and all the others but - as you well know - there are ongoing attempts to 'regularise' the way physical mediums work and to move away from unlit seances. Fair enough when dim lighting is being used but visibility is the key or how else can we justifiability say we 'saw' what happened? If it's bright enough for regular guys to see by that's good enough for me. You actually wrote earlier: "Same thing with the Lakota Sioux Medicine Man (Yuwipi Ceremony) It was in the dark, but there were materializations (again I know ya can't call 'em that because you can't see 'em)...but...things happened that I'm quite sure of."

    Now you've confirmed there was no evidence of survival (let's stay away from the thorny argument about what consitutes 'proof') I'd be minded to call the session phenomenalism rather than physical mediumship. Did you enjoy what you experienced?

    STEVEN LEVEE New Member

    Definitely enjoyed it. Another thing that happened was another "materialization" yelling at the top of his lungs...louder than anything I ever heard.
    More phenomenon...but...not of this world. There was no loudspeakers or anything of the sort in the room.
  7. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I just checked back - I was actually asking about the Warren Caylor demonstration you said you'd attended.
  8. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    If you enjoyed what you experienced, if you considered it value-for-money then nobody can say you're wrong in doing it. :)

    I don't understand, though, why an apparently materialised entity might feel the need to yell in such a way but, then, I'm a very simple soul who hopes discarnate communicators are spiritually evolved; I can see absolutely no reason for such an individual to yell loudly.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  9. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Active Member

    Infrared cameras or night vision equipment solves that problem.
  10. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    You'd certainly think so and thermographically recorded images obviate the need for even the low-level light necessary for night vision or for infra-red sources. It's long been the contention that light hinders the production of physical phenomena and can be dangerous to mediums. All these ways have been suggested but practioners continue to resist calls to use them to record their seances.

    A couple of years back the AFC introduced protocols for mediums working there to be recorded to avoid any claims of fraud carried out in the dark but - I think I'm right in saying - all the physical mediums booked for that year withdrew from their commitments at the college. I haven't heard that anything has changed since then.
  11. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Active Member

    Is there any actual evidence of infrared harming or even being noticed by a medium? In any case, there's hardly a case for saying the long-wave infrared our bodies emit is somehow dangerous. What's the excuse for rejecting thermographic recording?

    I think it is very foolish to take physical mediumship by someone unwilling to allow even thermographic cameras seriously.
  12. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I'm not aware of any evidence.

    I don't remember the exact details although I think one medium said his spirit support team wasn't comfortable with such arrangements. (or something similar) Whatever the exact reason(s) none was willing to have recording done.

    Others who care about these things express similar sentiments.
  13. mareke

    mareke New Member

    I agree with you Mac.

    The first séance I went to conducted by medium Tom Morris I witnessed phenomenon which in my opinion couldn’t have been faked and I described it in detail in my first post on the Overclockers forum. Was it proof of survival? Absolutely not but it appeared to have been genuine paranormal phenomena. If it didn’t originate from the spirit world where did it come from? Was it aliens from another dimension having some fun with the sitters making us think it was coming from the spirit world?

    As far as Flint goes I believe that all of those voices were Flint doing them. I can do a child’s voice and a woman’s voice and a deep male voice quite easily switching from one voice to another quickly. There’s a Flint recording in which a Roman soldier appeared and spoke followed by Mickey, Flint’s contrived ridiculous sounding assistant who said there were other spirit people present and then a Roman woman sang. When I heard the recording I marvelled at the way that Flint did each voice switching from one to another seamlessly and quickly changing the pitch and tone of his voice. There are people that can do this and in my opinion Flint was one of them.

    Almost everyone that listens to the Flint recordings does so holding a belief system that they are listening to spirits speaking. The possibility that it was Flint cunningly faking the voices modulating the tone and pitch of his voice to do them never enters the minds of most people listening to them. This is known as confirmation bias.

    Confirmation bias is the tendency to seek out, interpret, favour and recall information in a way that confirms one's pre-existing beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities. People that hear the Flint voices interpret them in a way that confirms their pre-existing belief that Flint was a genuine medium channelling real spirits from the spirit world. The alternate possibility that I’ve raised that Flint was faking the voices never enters the minds of the great majority of people that listen to Flint recordings or given any serious consideration.

    There are numerous clues indicating that Flint was faking the spirit voices. George Bernard Shaw coming through minus his accent and giving a contrived dubious excuse comes to mind. Flint I believe took the easy way out and came up with the excuse rather than have to practice an Irish accent and make it sound convincing and different to the Scottish accent he used to do John Sloan. Also if you listen carefully to the supposed spirit voices in Flint recordings you’ll find that in many cases there are words that are pronounced with an English accent. This is because Flint couldn’t consistently maintain the faked accent all the way through and occasionally he slips back into his natural English accent. It’s also why so many of his voices spoke with an English accent due to it being his native accent.

    As far as Flint talking at the same time as a spirit voice I’ve never heard him do this and if it happened I can think of one way of doing it through trickery using a little Walkman cassette player with a ‘spirit voice’ playing while Flint talked over the ‘spirit voice’. I still have a small Walkman player with speakers popular in Flint’s day that would do that and I remember someone once asking on a forum about a peculiar click he heard when listening to one of Flint’s spirit voices. Could it have been the click of a Walkman? We could then argue about how Flint managed to sneak it in and I’d say that he had at least one accomplice-almost certainly the guy that did the recordings.

    There’s also the photo of Flint with supposed ectoplasm coming from between his neck and shirt collar. Why was that necessary when I’ve never heard Flint speaking over any of the spirit voices? Which bodily orifice did it come from? His anus, penis or belly button? After coming out of one of these orifices it apparently then snaked its way around to the side of his neck where it sat waiting to be photographed despite ectoplasm supposedly being sensitive to light and shooting back from where it came when exposed to light.

    It looks like a piece of cheesecloth to me that Flint snuck in and slipped between his collar and neck. No no it’s ectoplasm coming out of one of his lower bodily orifices for no apparent reason! Give me a break!

    One of the voices I heard on the Flint compilation was a child’s voice claiming that his life on earth was cut short and that he lives with his mother in the spirit world in a ‘big house’. That’s a new one on me! I thought that before we come here as spirits we have an adult level of awareness in the spirit world where we plan our next incarnation and agree on the lessons to be learned. Upon arriving back in the spirit world we then study our last incarnation with the assistance of our spirit guide before planning our next incarnation. That’s what respected spiritual teachers like Seth indicate happens and what Michael Newton who hypnotized and regressed over 7,000 people to what he called the ‘superconscious state’ found happens.

    What Michael Newton’s subjects reveal while in the superconscious state is remarkably consistent. The soul reportedly joins with the foetus in the first trimester of the pregnancy and begins melding with and adjusting to the unique physical characteristics of the human form it has chosen to have an incarnation in. If the incarnation is cut short and the person dies in childhood according to the Flint recording the spirit remains a child on the other side growing up in a house like a child on earth. This contradicts everything I’ve learned which indicates that we re-join our spiritual group on the other side and then we study the lessons learned from the incarnation we just completed (regardless of whether it was long or unexpectedly cut short in childhood).

    According to the Flint recording if we die as a child we remain a child on the other side growing up in a ‘house’ with our mother (or presumably a surrogate mother if our earth mother is still in her human incarnation) raising us! Most people who listen to the Flint recordings don’t recognise that this contradicts what is taught by respected spiritual teachers. They automatically accept whatever the Flint spirit voice says because their pre-existing belief is that Flint was genuine. When I hear a spirit saying what this one claimed I don’t automatically believe it because I listen to Flint recordings with an analytical critical mind. When I hear a spirit claim what this particular spirit claimed I see it as evidence that Flint was faking the spirit voice and making stuff up on the fly.

    As far as Flint being able to produce voices with coloured water in his mouth and his mouth taped shut I wasn’t there when Flint was tested. Flint was supposedly the most tested medium ever but that claim came from Flint being his own biggest press agent. I’ve seen no report of him being tested by a reputable body nor a detailed outline of the methods used. Because Flint was reportedly tested and apparently able to produce voices with coloured water in his mouth and his mouth taped shut it doesn’t necessarily follow that there was no trickery involved.

    I’d rather not get bogged down in arguing over whether Flint was faking the voices or genuinely channelled spirits. When you cross over you may be able to find out whether he was genuine if you wish. In my mind he was faking the voices and he was the most successful fraudulent medium of them all who is still deceiving people after his return to the spirit world. Could I be wrong? Yes but I’ll be very surprised if I find out that I am wrong when I cross to the other side!
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  14. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I'm in full agreement with your sentiments, the ones above I've highlighted. The thread is about physical mediumship and Leslie Flint is simply one individual in this story, albeit one you've spent a lot of time considering.

    As you point out it can all be researched after we pass over and we'll all find out how close to - or far from - the actuality of the situation we were. Perhaps we'll ALL be somewhat surprised - never say never. ;)
  15. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    His Thomas Jefferson was indisputably genuine. The entity that communicated through him is the same one who was my mentor when I was a young man and he was old, and he is the same entity who has communicated with me through a medium. No question whatsoever. And if he was genuine, then it remains my working assumption that everyone else who communicated through Leslie Flint was genuine as well.
  16. mareke

    mareke New Member

    After reading your post Roberta I found the Jefferson recording on the internet and I listened to it. The recording quality wasn’t terribly good.

    Was it really Jefferson? It’s impossible to be certain. The sentiments Jefferson conveyed were good noble sentiments but that doesn’t mean that it was him. As I listened I picked up the occasional word that was spoken with what sounded to me a hint of a British accent. This wasn’t as obvious as many other Flint recordings I’ve listened to where spirit voices pronounce some words in a British accent due in my opinion to Flint impersonating spirits and occasionally lapsing into his native accent.

    In your mind Roberta the voice was indisputably Jefferson and I acknowledge your right to believe whatever you choose to believe. You used the word ‘indisputably’ in relation to whether or not it was Jefferson. That’s a value judgement on your part inferring that you know that you are right and that if I was to disagree with you and say I didn’t think it was Jefferson I would be wrong. That doesn’t necessarily follow.

    My opinion is that Flint was a fraudulent medium and I have objective reasons for coming to my view. Ultimately I don’t know for sure any more than you do. Only Flint and spirit beings such as spirit guides on the other side know for sure.

    I’d like to present one example among many of the sort of thing that led me to conclude that Flint was fraudulent.

    After listening to the Jefferson recording I listened to the Flint recording of Marilyn Munroe who came through at a Flint séance in 1973. My conclusion? In my opinion it wasn’t Marilyn Munroe. The accent was inconsistent and variable with some words spoken with too strong an American accent and others spoken with a hint of a British accent. It didn’t sound like Marilyn Munroe to me.

    About midway through the séance a male sitter asked where Marilyn originated from in the states and Marilyn failed to answer so he persisted and asked her several times where she was from in the states. He explained that he knew the place where she was born and grew up and he just wanted her to confirm it. When the sitter wouldn’t let up the ‘spirit’ of Marilyn acted confused and then completely disappeared.

    Why did she disappear? Could it be because Flint impersonating Munroe had failed to do his research and didn’t know where she was born and grew up? In my view that’s why the ‘spirit’ disappeared however I’m sure that others on the forum that are offended by my views on Flint would be able to come up with other reasons that allow them to continue to hold their belief that Flint was genuine.

    The ‘spirit’ of Marilyn by the way came back after a minute or two and again acted confused and had trouble speaking and a number of sitters encouraged her and then she began speaking up again. The guy that asked her where she was from let her off the hook by not pursuing his previous line of questioning. What would have happened if he had asked her again? You be the judge.

    I believe in the afterlife. I also believe that evidence for the afterlife should be able to withstand the sort of scrutiny that juries use in trials to determine truth. The example I gave above was one of a number of things that led me to conclude that Flint was fraudulent. The example involved a subtle but significant point. Therein lies the main difficulty of working out if many mediums are fraudulent namely that many of the clues that point to a medium being fraudulent are subtle and require keen perception. The average person lacks such perceptivity and that’s one of the reasons why so many fraudulent mediums have got away with it.

    When discussing a topic such as this views are bound to differ.
    As I wrote in my previous post I don’t want to get bogged down arguing as to whether or not Flint was genuine. I agree with Mac’s sentiments that Flint is one individual in a much bigger and more important story.​
    bluebird likes this.
  17. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Active Member

    I've listened to a lot of audiobooks, often with very talented and trained readers, and none of them gets remotely close to the range of voices Flint and other direct voice mediums produce.

    You've indicated your own belief system below, and I think you are operating under your own bias from that.

    Shaw gradually lost his accent as he grew older. Flint recordings have other accents, including Irish.

    That photo was taken in infrared light. While ectoplasm (a word invented by a Nobel Prize winner, incidentially, who was one of the scientists who studied this stuff) is weird, bizarre does not equate to fake. You need to look at the evidence.

    And here we find your own bias. Seth may be respected by you, but I've always thought he was a relatively low level entity pretending to know more than he did. Newton's use of hypnotic regression is highly suspect, as experiments showing how readily subjects invent false narratives shows.

    This sounds like bias to me. You've got some preexisting beliefs, and the results of mediumship (not just Flint, the whole lot of them) don't confirm them.
  18. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    I know very little about Flint, and thus have no opinion on whether or not he was actually a legitimate medium.

    I do know, though, that nothing is "indisputable" (at least while in this human life, on this planet) when it comes to issues of the afterlife.
  19. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Gene has done a very good analysis of mareke's approach towards Flint.

    I don't know if she'd agree with gene's verdict but it does appear Flint is very much in her firing line based on how much she's written about him.

    However the subject of physical mediumship and its importance or lack of it is far bigger than just Flint yet the conversation has become dominated by mareke's views about him. Time to change tack I respectfully suggest.

    STEVEN LEVEE New Member

    Probably because Flint was the best, Mac....FYI Mereke...the ectoplasm in the picture eminates from Leslie's ear.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018

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