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PM...Favorite Form Of Mediumship

Discussion in 'After-Death Communication' started by STEVEN LEVEE, Mar 2, 2018.

  1. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Active Member

    Is there any actual evidence of infrared harming or even being noticed by a medium? In any case, there's hardly a case for saying the long-wave infrared our bodies emit is somehow dangerous. What's the excuse for rejecting thermographic recording?

    I think it is very foolish to take physical mediumship by someone unwilling to allow even thermographic cameras seriously.
     
  2. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I'm not aware of any evidence.


    I don't remember the exact details although I think one medium said his spirit support team wasn't comfortable with such arrangements. (or something similar) Whatever the exact reason(s) none was willing to have recording done.

    Others who care about these things express similar sentiments.
     
  3. mareke

    mareke New Member

    I agree with you Mac.

    The first séance I went to conducted by medium Tom Morris I witnessed phenomenon which in my opinion couldn’t have been faked and I described it in detail in my first post on the Overclockers forum. Was it proof of survival? Absolutely not but it appeared to have been genuine paranormal phenomena. If it didn’t originate from the spirit world where did it come from? Was it aliens from another dimension having some fun with the sitters making us think it was coming from the spirit world?

    As far as Flint goes I believe that all of those voices were Flint doing them. I can do a child’s voice and a woman’s voice and a deep male voice quite easily switching from one voice to another quickly. There’s a Flint recording in which a Roman soldier appeared and spoke followed by Mickey, Flint’s contrived ridiculous sounding assistant who said there were other spirit people present and then a Roman woman sang. When I heard the recording I marvelled at the way that Flint did each voice switching from one to another seamlessly and quickly changing the pitch and tone of his voice. There are people that can do this and in my opinion Flint was one of them.

    Almost everyone that listens to the Flint recordings does so holding a belief system that they are listening to spirits speaking. The possibility that it was Flint cunningly faking the voices modulating the tone and pitch of his voice to do them never enters the minds of most people listening to them. This is known as confirmation bias.

    Confirmation bias is the tendency to seek out, interpret, favour and recall information in a way that confirms one's pre-existing beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities. People that hear the Flint voices interpret them in a way that confirms their pre-existing belief that Flint was a genuine medium channelling real spirits from the spirit world. The alternate possibility that I’ve raised that Flint was faking the voices never enters the minds of the great majority of people that listen to Flint recordings or given any serious consideration.

    There are numerous clues indicating that Flint was faking the spirit voices. George Bernard Shaw coming through minus his accent and giving a contrived dubious excuse comes to mind. Flint I believe took the easy way out and came up with the excuse rather than have to practice an Irish accent and make it sound convincing and different to the Scottish accent he used to do John Sloan. Also if you listen carefully to the supposed spirit voices in Flint recordings you’ll find that in many cases there are words that are pronounced with an English accent. This is because Flint couldn’t consistently maintain the faked accent all the way through and occasionally he slips back into his natural English accent. It’s also why so many of his voices spoke with an English accent due to it being his native accent.

    As far as Flint talking at the same time as a spirit voice I’ve never heard him do this and if it happened I can think of one way of doing it through trickery using a little Walkman cassette player with a ‘spirit voice’ playing while Flint talked over the ‘spirit voice’. I still have a small Walkman player with speakers popular in Flint’s day that would do that and I remember someone once asking on a forum about a peculiar click he heard when listening to one of Flint’s spirit voices. Could it have been the click of a Walkman? We could then argue about how Flint managed to sneak it in and I’d say that he had at least one accomplice-almost certainly the guy that did the recordings.

    There’s also the photo of Flint with supposed ectoplasm coming from between his neck and shirt collar. Why was that necessary when I’ve never heard Flint speaking over any of the spirit voices? Which bodily orifice did it come from? His anus, penis or belly button? After coming out of one of these orifices it apparently then snaked its way around to the side of his neck where it sat waiting to be photographed despite ectoplasm supposedly being sensitive to light and shooting back from where it came when exposed to light.

    It looks like a piece of cheesecloth to me that Flint snuck in and slipped between his collar and neck. No no it’s ectoplasm coming out of one of his lower bodily orifices for no apparent reason! Give me a break!

    One of the voices I heard on the Flint compilation was a child’s voice claiming that his life on earth was cut short and that he lives with his mother in the spirit world in a ‘big house’. That’s a new one on me! I thought that before we come here as spirits we have an adult level of awareness in the spirit world where we plan our next incarnation and agree on the lessons to be learned. Upon arriving back in the spirit world we then study our last incarnation with the assistance of our spirit guide before planning our next incarnation. That’s what respected spiritual teachers like Seth indicate happens and what Michael Newton who hypnotized and regressed over 7,000 people to what he called the ‘superconscious state’ found happens.

    What Michael Newton’s subjects reveal while in the superconscious state is remarkably consistent. The soul reportedly joins with the foetus in the first trimester of the pregnancy and begins melding with and adjusting to the unique physical characteristics of the human form it has chosen to have an incarnation in. If the incarnation is cut short and the person dies in childhood according to the Flint recording the spirit remains a child on the other side growing up in a house like a child on earth. This contradicts everything I’ve learned which indicates that we re-join our spiritual group on the other side and then we study the lessons learned from the incarnation we just completed (regardless of whether it was long or unexpectedly cut short in childhood).

    According to the Flint recording if we die as a child we remain a child on the other side growing up in a ‘house’ with our mother (or presumably a surrogate mother if our earth mother is still in her human incarnation) raising us! Most people who listen to the Flint recordings don’t recognise that this contradicts what is taught by respected spiritual teachers. They automatically accept whatever the Flint spirit voice says because their pre-existing belief is that Flint was genuine. When I hear a spirit saying what this one claimed I don’t automatically believe it because I listen to Flint recordings with an analytical critical mind. When I hear a spirit claim what this particular spirit claimed I see it as evidence that Flint was faking the spirit voice and making stuff up on the fly.

    As far as Flint being able to produce voices with coloured water in his mouth and his mouth taped shut I wasn’t there when Flint was tested. Flint was supposedly the most tested medium ever but that claim came from Flint being his own biggest press agent. I’ve seen no report of him being tested by a reputable body nor a detailed outline of the methods used. Because Flint was reportedly tested and apparently able to produce voices with coloured water in his mouth and his mouth taped shut it doesn’t necessarily follow that there was no trickery involved.

    I’d rather not get bogged down in arguing over whether Flint was faking the voices or genuinely channelled spirits. When you cross over you may be able to find out whether he was genuine if you wish. In my mind he was faking the voices and he was the most successful fraudulent medium of them all who is still deceiving people after his return to the spirit world. Could I be wrong? Yes but I’ll be very surprised if I find out that I am wrong when I cross to the other side!
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  4. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I'm in full agreement with your sentiments, the ones above I've highlighted. The thread is about physical mediumship and Leslie Flint is simply one individual in this story, albeit one you've spent a lot of time considering.

    As you point out it can all be researched after we pass over and we'll all find out how close to - or far from - the actuality of the situation we were. Perhaps we'll ALL be somewhat surprised - never say never. ;)
     
  5. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    His Thomas Jefferson was indisputably genuine. The entity that communicated through him is the same one who was my mentor when I was a young man and he was old, and he is the same entity who has communicated with me through a medium. No question whatsoever. And if he was genuine, then it remains my working assumption that everyone else who communicated through Leslie Flint was genuine as well.
     
  6. mareke

    mareke New Member

    After reading your post Roberta I found the Jefferson recording on the internet and I listened to it. The recording quality wasn’t terribly good.

    Was it really Jefferson? It’s impossible to be certain. The sentiments Jefferson conveyed were good noble sentiments but that doesn’t mean that it was him. As I listened I picked up the occasional word that was spoken with what sounded to me a hint of a British accent. This wasn’t as obvious as many other Flint recordings I’ve listened to where spirit voices pronounce some words in a British accent due in my opinion to Flint impersonating spirits and occasionally lapsing into his native accent.

    In your mind Roberta the voice was indisputably Jefferson and I acknowledge your right to believe whatever you choose to believe. You used the word ‘indisputably’ in relation to whether or not it was Jefferson. That’s a value judgement on your part inferring that you know that you are right and that if I was to disagree with you and say I didn’t think it was Jefferson I would be wrong. That doesn’t necessarily follow.

    My opinion is that Flint was a fraudulent medium and I have objective reasons for coming to my view. Ultimately I don’t know for sure any more than you do. Only Flint and spirit beings such as spirit guides on the other side know for sure.

    I’d like to present one example among many of the sort of thing that led me to conclude that Flint was fraudulent.

    After listening to the Jefferson recording I listened to the Flint recording of Marilyn Munroe who came through at a Flint séance in 1973. My conclusion? In my opinion it wasn’t Marilyn Munroe. The accent was inconsistent and variable with some words spoken with too strong an American accent and others spoken with a hint of a British accent. It didn’t sound like Marilyn Munroe to me.

    About midway through the séance a male sitter asked where Marilyn originated from in the states and Marilyn failed to answer so he persisted and asked her several times where she was from in the states. He explained that he knew the place where she was born and grew up and he just wanted her to confirm it. When the sitter wouldn’t let up the ‘spirit’ of Marilyn acted confused and then completely disappeared.

    Why did she disappear? Could it be because Flint impersonating Munroe had failed to do his research and didn’t know where she was born and grew up? In my view that’s why the ‘spirit’ disappeared however I’m sure that others on the forum that are offended by my views on Flint would be able to come up with other reasons that allow them to continue to hold their belief that Flint was genuine.

    The ‘spirit’ of Marilyn by the way came back after a minute or two and again acted confused and had trouble speaking and a number of sitters encouraged her and then she began speaking up again. The guy that asked her where she was from let her off the hook by not pursuing his previous line of questioning. What would have happened if he had asked her again? You be the judge.

    I believe in the afterlife. I also believe that evidence for the afterlife should be able to withstand the sort of scrutiny that juries use in trials to determine truth. The example I gave above was one of a number of things that led me to conclude that Flint was fraudulent. The example involved a subtle but significant point. Therein lies the main difficulty of working out if many mediums are fraudulent namely that many of the clues that point to a medium being fraudulent are subtle and require keen perception. The average person lacks such perceptivity and that’s one of the reasons why so many fraudulent mediums have got away with it.

    When discussing a topic such as this views are bound to differ.
    As I wrote in my previous post I don’t want to get bogged down arguing as to whether or not Flint was genuine. I agree with Mac’s sentiments that Flint is one individual in a much bigger and more important story.​
     
    bluebird likes this.
  7. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Active Member

    I've listened to a lot of audiobooks, often with very talented and trained readers, and none of them gets remotely close to the range of voices Flint and other direct voice mediums produce.

    You've indicated your own belief system below, and I think you are operating under your own bias from that.

    Shaw gradually lost his accent as he grew older. Flint recordings have other accents, including Irish.


    That photo was taken in infrared light. While ectoplasm (a word invented by a Nobel Prize winner, incidentially, who was one of the scientists who studied this stuff) is weird, bizarre does not equate to fake. You need to look at the evidence.

    And here we find your own bias. Seth may be respected by you, but I've always thought he was a relatively low level entity pretending to know more than he did. Newton's use of hypnotic regression is highly suspect, as experiments showing how readily subjects invent false narratives shows.

    This sounds like bias to me. You've got some preexisting beliefs, and the results of mediumship (not just Flint, the whole lot of them) don't confirm them.
     
  8. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    I know very little about Flint, and thus have no opinion on whether or not he was actually a legitimate medium.

    I do know, though, that nothing is "indisputable" (at least while in this human life, on this planet) when it comes to issues of the afterlife.
     
  9. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Gene has done a very good analysis of mareke's approach towards Flint.

    I don't know if she'd agree with gene's verdict but it does appear Flint is very much in her firing line based on how much she's written about him.

    However the subject of physical mediumship and its importance or lack of it is far bigger than just Flint yet the conversation has become dominated by mareke's views about him. Time to change tack I respectfully suggest.
     
  10. STEVEN LEVEE

    STEVEN LEVEE Member

    Probably because Flint was the best, Mac....FYI Mereke...the ectoplasm in the picture eminates from Leslie's ear.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  11. STEVEN LEVEE

    STEVEN LEVEE Member

    Also...this would be a huge amount of trouble/time/effort to perpetrate a fraud. And for what? Leslie wasn't rich. His close friends sat with him hundreds of times. Were they all in on it? Just would be senseless, really.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  12. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    I'm sorry, Mareke, but if you come to this website with an important claim that my own experience tells me is wrong, I have got to give the other side for the sake of everyone else who visits here! If you didn't know Thomas Jefferson in life, and if you haven't spoken with him through a medium, there is no human way that you could form any opinion whatsoever about whether or not the entity who spoke through Leslie Flint was Thomas Jefferson! On what could you base such a judgment?

    I did know Thomas Jefferson in life. He was elderly, and according to two different mediums I consulted more than a decade apart on matters altogether different, I was his young protege, Richard Rush. They both brought Jefferson and Richard up: I didn't! And that voice was the same voice I knew when my guide, Thomas, was the living Jefferson. It astonishes me to be saying this, because until I first heard the voice it wouldn't have occurred to me that I would remember his voice. But there it is.

    And not only did I recognize the voice, but that entity speaking in about 1960 was without a doubt the same being who broke into my life by way of a medium in February of 2015 and told me he was my primary guide and he had once been Thomas Jefferson. It was uncanny! Same personality, same attitude, and saying all the same things. Even if I had not recognized the voice, I did without a doubt recognize the man (as did the medium, when I later asked her to listen to the recording).

    Again to be frank, your very complaints about Flint make me even more confident that he is genuine. You seem to think that Marilyn Monroe would be able to pick up the phone - as precisely who she was in her Marilyn Monroe lifetime but now sitting in some afterlife living room - and speak through the medium as if she were exactly the same being she had been in that lifetime! I am sorry to say that your expectations are absurd, for at least these reasons:

    1) We know from repeated instances of indisputably genuine communications through deep-trance as well as spiritual mediums that people who have died forget MANY things about the life just lived that we on earth would think they should remember. Key words or signs they had arranged on their deathbeds; the names of important people and places from that lifetime: a great many things! The reason why this happens is not yet clear, but we suspect that the process of merging with our vast eternal minds and remembering so many other lifetimes that may have been much more important to us plays a part. And even during life, we forget a lot of things that we once had known like the backs of our hands! What was your phone number ten years ago? Or if you have the same number now, then what was your number before this one? I am 71 years old, and at this point I've got to say that if I had had the knockabout life that poor Marilyn had as a child I might not even now remember where I was born, either. Significantly, in every case I have seen where people speaking through a medium don't remember something they should have remembered, they are very embarrassed about it! That the genuine "Marilyn" would react as she did when she drew a blank - act befuddled and rattled, withdraw to try to think more clearly, perhaps come back weaker as she still struggled to answer that question - is something that, based on how others have acted in similar situations, I would nave expected.

    2) The process of speaking through a direct-voice medium as a dead person is almost impossibly difficult. I would say that in fact it is impossible, if we didn't have abundant verified instances of it! Those that we used to think were dead have bodies without internal organs, and they speak by mind. Speaking aloud is possible there, and it is conceivable that they do in fact have voice-boxes (although most advanced researchers seem to believe they do not), but since very quickly they fall into the local custom of communicating entirely by thought and not using words, someone who had been dead for decades would probably not even remember how to put thoughts into words and then speak them aloud. The Thomas who spoke through Flint - who as TJ had been one of the greatest wordsmiths who ever lived - started the session griping about how hard it is to communicate with "words, words, and none of them very precise" (or something like that). But in order for him (or anyone) to speak through Flint, he had to do a lot more than just remember how to form sentences! He also had to remember how he had sounded in his next-to-last lifetime, then somehow reconfigure the ectoplasm voicebox that Flint was providing him with to try to make it sound like that long-ago living voice, then of course recall how to communicate verbally, form sentences, etc., and start talking. These people appear not to be able to hear their own voices as they communicate this way, since they often ask if they are being heard. And even after all of that, this entity who had died as Thomas Jefferson more than a century before actually sounded like him! Good grief, and remember that speech is more than just the voicebox - it's breath, intonation, pacing - but still it sounded just like the man in life. I am in awe all over again! I should note, too, that although I don't detect any British tinge, if Jefferson's voice had had a little British edge that would not have been surprising, since his final lifetime was as a farmer in Wales. If you are going to judge someone as a fraud who is universally known to be genuine, you ought at least to do sufficient research to understand why your personal standards might not have been met in some cases!

    Leslie Flint was genuine. I base my conclusion on many things beyond his ability to wonderfully reconnect me with a (very) old friend! Lots of folks who had known dead people in life communicated with them through Flint - sometimes repeatedly - and were certain they were in contact with their loved one. And people I very much respect have researched Flint and convinced themselves that he was genuine. Skepticism is always warranted when we are researching extraordinary phenomena, but casually deciding that someone like Leslie Flint is a fraud is not skepticism. It is debunkerism. And it has no place here.
     
  13. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    ... Oh, and based upon my half-century of research, I've got to say that Gene's criticisms above are spot-on. People who die as children DO grow up in the afterlife to young adulthood (it doesn't take long, but it's up to them how long it takes); and Michael Newton's work is frankly aberrant. It doesn't agree with nearly 200 years of extremely consistent communications from those who have died and are now living in the afterlife. There are ways in which we can square his work with what the dead tell us, so I am not saying he is a fraud; but hypnotic regression to the life-between-lives IS NOT regression to the afterlife as we actually will live it. As for "Seth," I agree with Gene as well. Nearly all of the beings who communicate with us a lot - notably including "Erik" - are not at the highest levels, and most of them guess at what they don't know. And they often guess wrong. 'Nuf said.
     
  14. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Active Member

    Who are the advanced researchers you mention? What I keep hearing is that we start off, at least, with a sort of copy of our physical body, which presumably includes a larynx. As to always employing telepathy, I'm reminded of something from J D Mattison's communications (I hope I have that name right; I couldn't find it via Google): Mattison said he had met John Knox, who died in 1572. Although Knox had been over a long time and had no trouble communicating telepathically, they talked instead because Knox "liked to talk".
     
  15. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    It's an interesting conundrum..... The mechanisms whereby our voices operate involve a carrying medium, the air we breathe. It would seem, then, that if discarnates can use their bodies' organs to speak they must also use a carrying medium for the sounds they make. And the listener would also need that medium to convey to physical ears the sounds a speaker makes.

    Is it the case (one might wonder) that there actually is just such a carrying medium, even if it's not exactly similar to the air we breathe as incarnates? And do we also have - or can we quickly fashion - a functioning hearing system?

    Or might it be that although Knox liked to talk, his words were actually heard telepathically, transmitted concurrently with his simulated speech?
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
  16. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Active Member

    The books I mentioned are Witness from Beyond and Evidence from Beyond; the medium was Margaret Flavell Tweddell and the communicator A D Mattson. I highly recommend these if you come across a copy or want to order one.
     
  17. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Gene, the real experts are people who are actually dead. And nearly all their most reliable communications are a century or more old now! Unfortunately, modern people can't ask those people questions, and questions that are obvious to us seem not to have occurred to their interrogators back then, so - for example - more than a decade into doing this research, I still had no certainties about the nature of their bodies! I found that frustrating. Fortunately, more recent communicators - e.g. Mikey Morgan - have been happy to answer questions in detail, so our understanding of post-death bodies is by now reasonably clear. We are consistently told that:

    1) They closely mimic earth-bodies, but they are made of a different stuff that is finer, and that in some lights seems vaguely translucent. Think of alabaster, but imbued with colors.

    2) They are mind-created. Those of us who are reasonably advanced can choose to look as we like, at whatever age we like. Most choose to look like maybe age 30 in the most recent lifetime, but that is up to us. (The least advanced generally look like an outward manifestation of their inward pathologies; and those in the outer darkness can look like demons.)

    3) These bodies lack internal organs. They seem to possess functioning genitalia, but that may be optional as well.

    4) Since everything is so different there - especially both the physics of the place and the powers of our minds - don't assume that producing an audible voice would there require a voice-box. As I said earlier in this thread, I don't know whether or not those bodies have voice-boxes, but it seems that most of the researchers I respect (an "advanced researcher" is someone who has done a lot of research and cut no corners) think they do not. Even those who are long-dead do routinely use spoken words when they speak with new arrivals; but it is entirely possible those audible words are mind-produced. We know that we can hear sounds there - we are often told that mind-hearing is much better than hearing with ears, just as mind-sight is far superior to seeing with eyes - but it is possible that the sound of the words we speak is mind-produced. The point is that we just don't know, and no "advanced researcher" would assume a conclusion to any question of which there was not sufficient evidence. It is clear from things like Thomas Jefferson's frustration with using spoken words when he spoke through Leslie Flint more than a century after his Jefferson death that more advanced beings who don't deal with new arrivals probably don't use spoken words at all.*

    5) "Advanced researchers" assume nothing! I cannot emphasize that fact with sufficient zeal. No researcher worth his salt would ever, ever use the word "presumably," Gene, since that world is so completely different in every way from this one!


    * It has just occurred to me to ask a new question. How is it that Thomas and I communicate for guidance purposes? Don't we speak words? All of us have primary guides we talk with frequently - perhaps almost every night - and we also get their nudges in the daytime. But our daytime communication is generally feelings rather than words, and perhaps our vocal communication at night - if it happens - is also by mind. When I have wanted a very specific answer and have been insistent about getting it, he has on occasion let me wake up with specific words in my mind; but it is generally a sentence or less. I guess, the more I think about it, that I'm concluding that Thomas Jefferson's frustration when he spoke through Leslie Flint in 1960 may have been with the whole process of earth-conversing: hearing the question, having to form his thoughts into spoken words on the spot, and then having to get that &^%$$% ectoplasm voicebox to produce those words. But he was certainly right about one thing: words are imprecise! Imagine what it will be like when you can think your love for someone and have your beloved perfectly understand your feelings. Won't that be heaven?
     
  18. Bill Z

    Bill Z Active Member

    Thank you Roberta!
    So much of what you just stated resonated with me and I have experienced much of this.
    What you said about the more advanced mind-creating their bodies gave me so much reassurance. My sweet Susie told me She is 35 and my favorite photo of Her is when She was 35, years before we met. Mediums that have brought Her through have all told me that She is pretty powerful and I guess advanced. I wake up with thoughts that clarify things I'm going through and She guides me through the day in important areas. I know She is not alone in guiding me as She has told me.
    I am so glad I've found this forum. My life is now in service to learning more about ALC and becoming a better person and reaching out to others. Thank you. We think our love every day, or at least She does, I'm still learning.
     
    pandora97 likes this.
  19. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I'd go one stage beyond to suggest that the expression of love for another doesn't require thinking it. From what we've heard from 'over there' such emotions ought, I suggest, to be communicated automatically, naturally, without there being any need to think them.

    After all, the very mechanism of thinking them is a conscious action and unconditional love would appear to require no conscious effort such as with the love we feel for our children - it just happens. Or, controversially perhaps, maybe we're 'hard-wired' to experience that love?
     
  20. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    If there is an afterlife, then with this I agree. In this earthly life I could feel my husband's love without him needing to say or do anything, and he mine, so if we continue to exist in an afterlife I would certainly expect at least the same there.
     
  21. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Apparently communication requires thinking - we send a bolus of thought from mind to mind - but what seems to be the case is that we feel other people's emotions. I'm not sure about that - I don't think anyone is - but it certainly seems lovely!
     
  22. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Yes I agree that thinking precedes our communicating in the etheric - that's kinda where we came in several postings back discussing the mechanism of verbal compared to non-verbal communication. ;)

    I can't think how the situation was explained (probably by Silver Birch) concerning love/emotions save to say that our emotions apparently can be 'read' by other discarnates, we seemingly appearing 'transparent' (in that regard) compared with the way our physical overcoat conceals many of our emotions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018

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