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Discussion in 'General Afterlife Discussions' started by Sixthsense, Jul 8, 2017.

  1. Sixthsense

    Sixthsense New Member

    I heard of a someone who had a massive heart attack and was "dead" for a number of hours. He reported no experience of any afterlife during the period he was "dead". Can anyone explain why he experienced nothing and others do have an experience.
     
  2. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Plainly he wasn't dead or he wouldn't be here to tell the tale!

    Several hours comatose is rather different than several minutes in a close-to-death situation where someone MIGHT experience an NDE with recall of how they felt, where they appeared to be etc.

    Why, then, could he have experienced the so-called afterlife when he hadn't left this life? As for why some have near-death experiences and other don't you may as well ask why one person can run like the wind with no training yet another achieves much less despite their best endeavors.

    We're all different, one from another - period.
     
  3. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    I agree with Mac! More advanced beings who have lived on earth have told us plainly that death is a one-way trip: if you come back from it, then demonstrably you never were dead. So you might as well ask why some of us remember vivid dreams and others claim that they never dream at all. We all truly are different, but none of this has anything to do with actual death.
     
  4. Sixthsense

    Sixthsense New Member

    I was told this guy was declared dead, but I guess he just didn't experience anything like others do.
     
  5. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    It doesn't help that your information was third-hand, passed on by someone else who presumably had also been told the sufferer was dead. It doesn't matter what anyone tells you, though, because you should know what constitutes death, what results in it being a permanent state. No matter what the source of information about 'the dead guy' YOU should KNOW that the state of being dead is irreversible.

    If you don't know that, what do you know?
     
  6. jimrich

    jimrich Active Member

    I know it's just semantics but for me "death" needs to be physical death where the body has died but the living being ALWAYS survives bodily death. As for an Afterlife experience - I don't know. My late wife was already in the Afterlife before her body "died" but that's a long story..................
     
  7. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    jimrich is right to point out that when we say dead we're referring to the physical body. Accounts of apparently-dead, comatose individuals and accounts of NDEs - often mistakenly seen as equivalent to experiencing death - may confuse the aspect of when death actually happens. Bodily death, that is.

    Spiritually, the point at which death of the body happens is when the 'life force' (for want of a more suitable term) flowing from the spirit to its body ceases. After that point physical death is irreversible; there is no direct connection between spirit and body. The spirit lives on but its former physical overcoat is dead, is without life.

    Sometimes an animating spirit may spend increasing amounts of time away from its physical body before that body finally stops functioning - its death - but for most of us it's not something we need to consider. There's enough for many to struggle with trying to get their heads around what constitutes spiritually-defined death compared with clinical death.
     
  8. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Well said, Mac!!
     
  9. Greyportal

    Greyportal New Member

    I highly doubt anyone who suffered a massive heart attack could exist in a "dead " state for hours.

    When the heart stops, blood flow to the brain and organs stops. Within 5 to 10 minutes irreversible brain damage occurs. It's not possible to be "dead " for hours. Given irreversible brain damage at 5 to 10 minutes, hospitals rarely continue resuscitation efforts after 20 -30 minutes. An individual that suffers a massive heart attack while hospitalized will probably receive longer resuscitation efforts than an individual who suffers a heart attack outside a hospital. The reason being is a hospital can aid respiration, thus increase chance of survival.

    Medical studies found only about 25% of cardiac arrest patient experience a NDE. If in fact there was an individual who was "dead "for hours, of which it's unlikely, he/she would be in the majority of not experiencing an NDE.

    There's no proof that NDE's are in fact death experiences. I had a very very vivid NDE, yet experienced no death like trauma. One study of 58 individuals who experienced NDE's found 30 of them were not at risk of actually dying. The majority of doctors, especially neurologists, believe NDE's are a biological response to the suppression of respiration.
     
  10. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    NDEs are not death, although they can be converted to death; but for the most part, they are an altogether different phenomenon. They are not a biological response, either; but rather, they are a form of out-of-body experience that can happen when we are under physical stress.
     
  11. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    As we've said in the past, death is an irreversible condition.

    The issue about whether anyone could exist for hours after a massive heart attack is a medical one which although interesting doesn't change the situation concerning the spiritual aspect of death.

    An NDE is an experience someone reports from a time when their bodies appeared near to death. Plainly it's not a (quote) "death experience". If it were the individual wouldn't be around to directly tell the tale! Where an individual has some kind of experience at a time when their body is under no stress, not experiencing symptoms that might reasonably be expected to threaten death, then the experience is not a near-death one; it's something else.

    People believe all kinds of things but believing doesn't necessarily mean they're right. I find it totally plausible that some experiences may come about through biological causes but that doesn't mean that all do....
     
  12. Greyportal

    Greyportal New Member


    You and I could talk to were blue in the face explaining that NDE's are not death. It doesn't matter though because the definition of death is not what people focus on with NDE's. People don't make those distinctions. People assume that NDE's ARE a death experience. And every time you read a news article about someone who experienced one it is always in relationship to "clinical death." It's always about an individual who experienced an NDE during the cessation of cardiac and respiration functions.

    So it doesn't matter what the definition of death is; the minute people read the stories about people who had an NDE during a loss of cardiac function they associate it with having died and survived. Doesn't matter if it correct or even if it makes logical sense or not... it's what people believe.

    I myself had an experience that is classic NDE; so classic my neurologist even told me it was an NDE. Yet I was in my bed asleep when it happened. I experienced no trauma that was life threatening.
     
  13. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    It may not matter to you what NDE is compared with spiritual death. It may not matter to those experiencing an NDE. It may also not matter to some, many or all of the individuals reading about them. But it does matter to me to be as accurate as I can when commenting on them, especially so on ALF and elsewhere because seekers come looking and I'd prefer they found an explanation why one is not the other.

    As for your personal experience what does it tell us?
     
  14. Greyportal

    Greyportal New Member


    I'm not sure how you can be so sure of yourself on what an NDE is since there is zero consensus in the science and medical communities as to what it is.
     
  15. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I'm not sure what an NDE is, only what others experiencing them say they are. I am sure what they're not.
     
  16. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    As I remarked earlier, what does your personal experience tell us about an NDE that we didn't know before?
     
  17. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    There is zero consensus in the science and medical communities about NDEs because they must operate within a beliefs-based system and deny the possibility that consciousness is independent and pre-exists matter. Since in fact it is indeed separate and it does in fact pre-exist matter (as no less a light than Max Planck said), they will never be able to understand the first thing about a phenomenon that is at its core out-of-body travel until they first ditch their fallacious dogma!
     
  18. Widdershins3

    Widdershins3 Active Member

    One of my two closest friends experienced Sudden Cardiac Death (a medical term only--I don't want to get into the "was it death or not" debate) a decade ago and survived it, due to the "coincidence" of her husband having just completed a CPR class at work. She's really annoyed that she cannot recall anything from the incident at all.

    We've discussed it and I've told her that I suspect that unremembered NDEs happen for several reasons: she received a lot of medication in the hospital when they first treated, then operated on her, and/or perhaps her own life plan did not include personal evidence of survival at this point in her life. Just guesses on my part, but I do commiserate with her and understand her disappointment. She's a bright woman, a prolific writer, and is trying to deal with what happened to her in a positive way. But she longs for certain knowledge of an afterlife more than most people, since another cardiac event could happen at any time and if the implanted shock device in her chest malfunctions, she may cross over very suddenly.
     
  19. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    The medics can use whatever term they have adopted to reflect the clinical state of a patient. But we at ALF know what we mean when we discuss among ourselves what death involves and then what follows - continuing life but in a different dimension, a different world, a different body. Somehow, though, there seems now to be an expectation that during an apparently near-death situation the sufferer will automatically experience, and remember, a life-altering glimpse of the next world.

    Your guess could be right about the reason for her not experiencing something to convince her of eternal life, her survival of death. Whether she longs for surety of survival more than most is moot, even though she feels under threat of a sudden passing. I wish she could find that surety but there must be many who wish for similar surety for other reasons and they're no less deserving.
     
  20. MalMac56

    MalMac56 Member

    I suffered a sudden cardiac arrest (Clinical Death) in 2009.
    I never seen anything or didn't remember anything either.... kind of a disappointment really.
    I put this down to as not being actually dead enough.... If you know what I mean lol.
     

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