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Discussion in 'NDE The near-death-experience forum' started by Ask21771, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. Ask21771

    Ask21771 New Member

    I'm worried that ndes are satanic deceptions and am looking for as much objective evidence that they aren't as possible, please help
     
  2. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    You've been a member here for quite some time so what has led you to start worrying this way?
     
  3. Ask21771

    Ask21771 New Member

    I've been worried about this for years
     
  4. Ed A.

    Ed A. Member

    It completely defies logic. It would make no sense at all for Satan to spend his time/energy on creating an experience that deeply convinces people of:

    1) the reality of an afterlife;
    2) the fact that the harm we do to others will be revisited on us (reinforcing most religious precepts, e.g., the golden rule);
    3) the reality of God;
    4) the ultimate goodness of God, and the fact that God loves them deeply;
    5) the transcendent importance of love; and
    6) the knowledge that some people, often those who've lived a life of selfishness, visit a fairly "hellish" realm, and who are rescued from that by crying out to God.

    To do that, Satan would be completely defeating his own agenda. Makes no sense at all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
    Kurt, Amore and kim marine like this.
  5. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    but why? What about NDE has significance for you?
     
  6. Jimmy

    Jimmy New Member

    Wow, I have always had that in the back of my mind as well but this is so simple and makes so much sense. Thank you.
     
    Kurt and Ed A. like this.
  7. ravensgate

    ravensgate Active Member

    Hello! May I ask if you or anyone else can offer objective evidence that NDEs are the work of Satan?
    Personally, if I believed in the existence of Satan (I do not), I don't see how Satan would go through the "trouble" of providing generally positive NDEs that many might see as sufficient proof of an afterlife, of being reunited with loved ones, etc. etc.
    Do you remember when your worries about this possibility began?

    And why do I see the pink background (except for the first line)? Anyone know how to get rid of it? Thank you.
     
  8. ravensgate

    ravensgate Active Member

    P.S. Off, after I posted, the pink highlighting dissapeared.... Oh, well
     
  9. Ed A.

    Ed A. Member

    I can't even imagine what "objective evidence" would consist of, in a situation like this. A photo of a red guy with horns, standing over the hospital bed? A transcript of Satan and his minions, working on their secret plot to fake NDEs?
     
    Kurt likes this.
  10. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    In my Firefox computer browser, only the quoted-text box has a pink background.
     
  11. ravensgate

    ravensgate Active Member

    My point.

    Ask21771, it might help us help you if you would elaborate on your post. Thanks!
     
    Kurt likes this.
  12. Ed A.

    Ed A. Member

    Oh, it sounded like you were asking a question, not making a statement.

    Anyhow, if the OP does return, I'd be curious to know what he thought of my Post #4.

    I'd also be curious to know what specifically he finds in NDE accounts that make him worry that they might be coming from Satan. For instance, I imagine that some Christians might find some parts of NDE testimony in conflict with their beliefs (e.g., most people ending up in heaven, even atheists or people of other faiths). If some specifics are given, maybe we can address them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  13. Ask21771

    Ask21771 New Member

    Well like you said the fact that people regardless of the status of their faith is end up in what appears to be heaven plus scriptures that say things like "satan masquerades as an angel of light"
     
  14. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    What about NDE has significance for you? Or have you been reading/hearing something that left you spooked? If you've no NDE involvement, why your concern?
     
  15. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Remember that apparent near-death experiences are not the same as death anyway.
     
  16. Ask21771

    Ask21771 New Member

    In my opinion ndes if they're not deceptions prove the Bible wrong
     
  17. Ask21771

    Ask21771 New Member

    That's my point how do we know it's not satan
     
  18. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    And your point is????
     
  19. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    How do we know WHAT'S not Satan? I'm leaving this conversation as I expect it's going nowhere useful - good luck.
     
  20. Ask21771

    Ask21771 New Member

    The ndes, how do we know they're not deceptions created by Satan to trick people?
     
  21. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I'm gonna leave others to answer you....
     
  22. Ed A.

    Ed A. Member

    I understand how it can be a conflict if, on the one hand, you believe that faith (along with grace) saves you, and on the other, you hear NDE accounts of people of different or no faiths going to a heavenly realm.

    I think there are a few things I'd say:

    1. I wrestle with this, too. But unlike you (I suspect), I came to faith in the afterlife, and then God, in large part because of NDE research. From there I eventually came to believe in Christianity. So for me, it has been a progression, with NDEs leading eventually to Christianity. So I don't see the conflict that people going in the other direction do (Christianity then NDEs). To me, they mostly seem mutually supportive, not contradictory.

    2. There are several leading Christian apologists who speak very positively about NDEs. Bishop Robert Barron, Fr. Richard Spitzer, and biblical scholar Gary Habermas come to mind.

    3. There are many ways to interpret what the Bible says, not just one. Some interpretations are pretty rigid, but others leave plenty of wiggle room for God. Ultimately I think God is bigger and better than we believe. I'm not someone who believes the Bible is the final word from God. I think there is such a thing as continual revelation, and I believe NDEs may be a part of that.

    4. NDEs are only accounts of the very first part of the journey. They provide strong evidence of an afterlife, but they do a poor job of telling us about what "heaven" is really like. I think they are very limited in that regard. NDEs are probably best thought of as giving info about the antechamber to heaven, or the port of entry.

    5. Other accounts (e.g., from evidential mediums) suggest that people go to different areas, with different levels of light/spirit, depending upon their own level of spiritual development -- and that their experience reflects their preconceptions. So there does appear to be some sorting process, based on a person's beliefs, and their level of spirituality or character.

    6. Some people have "hellish" NDE experiences, and at least in the cases I've seen (e.g., Howard Storm), these have been people living selfish, hedonistic, materialistic lives -- that is, exactly the kind of people Christianity would predict.

    7. NDEs do seem to be shaped by cultural conditioning. They are not just objective reports. For example, Christians see Jesus, and Muslims see Mohammed. I guess maybe atheists see Hitchens. Anyhow, what that means is that NDE reports are not objective truth but need to be read as the person's interpretation of their own experience, through their own personal/cultural lens. That's why I think it's better to look at large studies and not to be thrown off by individual testimonies.


    Also, I'd refer you back to my post #4 for a simple, common sense argument against the idea that Satan is concocting all this. It just makes no sense whatsoever. Actually, if Satan is up to anything, it's more likely that he is the one implanting the idea that NDEs are the devil's work.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  23. Ask21771

    Ask21771 New Member

    I'm not a Christian I just take the possibility that they're right seriously
     
  24. Ed A.

    Ed A. Member

    Oh. That's curious. Most of the time I hear this idea, it comes from people who are fundamentalist Christians (or at least been raised by them, or have them around).

    I find it puzzling that you don't believe in Christianity, but you are concerned that Satan might be behind NDEs, and the reason you gave was that it might violate some aspects of Christian teachings. If you don't believe in Christianity, what difference does it make?

    Oh well, assuming you believe in God, the arguments still apply. It doesn't make a bit of sense to suppose Satan would engineer an experience that brings people closer to God.
     
  25. Ask21771

    Ask21771 New Member

    I'm open to the idea Christianity is right, and it does make sense for Satan to engineer ndes to get people to believe in a false God and doctrine
     
  26. Ed A.

    Ed A. Member

    False God? If I can sum up NDEs very simply, people report an experience of overwhelming and unconditional love. That's not a false God. That's the true God.

    As for doctrinal discrepancies, I've said some things about that, but I won't repeat. Ultimately, I don't get why it worries you, if you don't believe Christian doctrine in the first place. It would be like me worrying about contradictions between the Koran and NDE reports. I'm not a Muslim, so I don't care. It would make more sense to wait until you actually believe in Christianity, and then get into worrying about whether NDEs contradict specific any Christian doctrines and how to resolve those discrepancies. You've got your worrisome cart before your horse.

    Anyhow, I think I've said my piece. I wish you luck.
     
  27. Ask21771

    Ask21771 New Member

    I believe it's possible Christianity is right, I'm trying to use ndes to find out if it is
     
  28. Ed A.

    Ed A. Member

    And at the same time you are using Christianity to cast doubt on NDEs... Do you see the bind you are in? You are questioning both NDEs and Christianity, and you're using one to try to prove (or disprove) the other, without believing in either. That's an unresolvable dilemma. It's like a boxing match in jello.

    I'd suggest you investigate the subjects separately, and come to your own conclusions about each. There are plenty of good arguments and evidence for Christianity, and there are plenty of good arguments and evidence for NDEs. Those are very different areas, with very different sorts of arguments and evidence. Investigate them separately, then figure out what you believe. That will be more productive than doing what you're doing now, which is just going to lead you around in circles.
     
    Obiwan likes this.
  29. genewardsmith

    genewardsmith Active Member

    In his Meditations on First Philosophy, Descartes asked how could we know if an evil demon was tricking us by showing us an illusion of an external world which didn't exist. His conclusion was that we couldn't. He finally reasons his way to the conclusion that God exists, and therefore we can trust we are not being deceived, since God is not a deceiver.
     
  30. Ask21771

    Ask21771 New Member

    Ok but how do we know that what appears to be God in the nde is actually God
     

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