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Ndes involving Satan

Discussion in 'Afterlife Evidence' started by Ask21771, May 5, 2017.

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  1. kim

    kim Active Member

    "Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of the mystery that we are trying to solve."- MaxPlanck
  2. bluebird

    bluebird Regular Contributor

    I agree with your viewpoint on this subject.
    Ed A. likes this.
  3. Ed A.

    Ed A. Member

    I agree with him. Matter is contingent on something else (he says an intelligence). Everything we experience in this world is contingent. That was one way Aquinas argued for the existence of God, btw -- everything in our world is contingent; therefore there must be something else behind it all which is not contingent.

    But notice -- just because something is contingent does not make it unreal; it does not mean that it does not exist. In fact, it implies that it is real and does exist. In fact, Planck says this himself in the quote: "All matter originates and exists... [then goes on to describe the contingency]."

    If something exists, it is real. It is not illusory or unreal. Just because it's dependent on something else doesn't make it unreal.
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  4. kim

    kim Active Member

    This is just something to think about: Since any other level is not apparent to us do you think ours is apparent to those on the other level? Don't you think it is only logical that all levels stem from the same source, whatever that may be?
  5. mac

    mac Staff Member

    You got it.
  6. mac

    mac Staff Member

    I wonder how much of it he got wrong.....
  7. bluebird

    bluebird Regular Contributor

    No, not necessarily. I don't believe there is a "god" or "source" from which everything comes. I could be wrong, of course, but I likely won't know the truth of it either way until I die, if then.
  8. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    "If something exists, it is real." What does this mean? Is a very vivid dream real??
  9. bluebird

    bluebird Regular Contributor

    Yes, in it's own way, and in the effect it might have on the dreamer.
  10. Ed A.

    Ed A. Member

    It may help to back up a step. The context of the conversation I was having with kim and others was the idea that the material world is "illusory" or "unreal." You commented on something I was saying in the midst of that conversation, and we've gone off on a bit of a tangent about energy and matter. But the original conversation was about whether the world we experience is "illusory" or "unreal." It's not language that works for me, and I was explaining why. That's why I highlighted Planck's mention that matter exists.

    "If something exists, it is real." By that I mean, "reality" refers to what exists. If something doesn't exist in any way, shape or form, you can't call it real. Well, you can, but it doesn't make any sense to me.

    Ok, back to the question about dreams. Good question, because it makes clear that there are two different ways to talk about things being real. Dreams are real in one sense, but not in another. They're real in the sense that they correspond to actual events in the brain, and the actual physiological, mental, emotional experience of the person while in that state. But they are not real in the sense that they do not correspond to anything actually happening in objective reality; it's all in the imagination. You wake up, and you go, "Oh, it was all a dream."

    It's similar to a hallucination. Hallucinations are real in the sense that the person is really having that mental experience; there are real neuropsychological events, physiological, mental, emotional reactions, etc. But it's not real in the sense that it does not correspond to objective reality. The FBI really isn't wire tapping the person. It's just in their imagination.

    The latter is how I hear it, when people say the world is illusory or unreal. It's like they're telling me it's a dream or hallucination, and when we "wake up" (transition), we'll see it was all just a dream, a figment of our imagination.

    It reminds me of TV shows that wrap up a story by saying "it was all a dream." I never watched Dallas, but I remember all the fallout when they did that. I think the last season of Rosanne did that, too. "It was all a dream." The audience hated that, because it's a cop out.

    I'm being a little silly, but that's how talking about life as illusory/unreal sounds to me. It's like our life is a bad TV show, and it'll wrap up with, "It was all a dream!" Boooo.
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
    mac likes this.
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