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illusion?

Discussion in 'Spiritual Growth & Development' started by mac, Dec 17, 2017.

  1. pandora97

    pandora97 Active Member

    "We each are individuated sparks of that divine source, eternally spiritually-perfect but appearing as something less. Isn’t that the grandest of illusions?"

    If this were true Mac do you see another reason(s) for us being here? For repeatedly reincarnating? And what about the progress required to move from one level to the next of the seven that supposedly exist after this one is over? Have you changed your thinking about the existence of the seven levels? Or how we move from one to another?
     
  2. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    First thing first - I've never subscribed to the notion of seven levels so no change in my thinking there.... The reasons for our living the lives we do has required a marginal adjustment in my thinking. Essentially it's to experience and to take back to source - for whatever reason(s) - what we gained by our experiences in the dimensions along our way.

    No change in thinking about why/how we move along our path - we learn from experiences, we progress in our spiritual understanding of what we're experiencing and we move away from comparative ignorance towards something less ignorant.

    That same principle applies right up to the point after which we again merge with source and lose again our individuation.
     
  3. kim marine

    kim marine Active Member

     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  4. pandora97

    pandora97 Active Member

    "The reasons for our living the lives we do has required a marginal adjustment in my thinking. Essentially it's to experience and to take back to source - for whatever reason(s) - what we gained by our experiences in the dimensions along our way."

    Thanks for your response Mac. Since I'm new to ALF my questions have obviously caused you to repeat your position/view. I apologize for the inconvenience:oops:
     
  5. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    You were fine - I don't necessarily explain myself as well as I'd hope. :)
     
  6. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    "There it is Mac, you described reality without even knowing it, because a piece of eternal reality is what you really are and think about but your carnal self refuses to accept it. " Well, actually, I did know what I'd done. ;) And for most of us our corporeal-selves know little about anything spiritual anyway - eternity is probably the least likely thing we'll ever grasp while we're in-the-body.

    "We are not incarnate beings, although our bodies seem incarnate." As incarnates we live in a body animated by our eternal selves, our animating spirits. You can play word-games but I'm clear about what I mean.


    "Divine Consciousness is the ONLY eternal thing that exists. THAT is reality." That's your stab at a definition!

    "This dimension is like a play, and everyone is living their part because this dimension is set up by a "casting crew" like in a movie." nah, I'm not going along with that!


    "To Divine Consciousness every dimension is the same, but it is WE living here who can't see the difference." On the first point that's your supposition but it's hardly surprising if we don't understand the situation, your second point.

    "I read that you mentioned before that this dimension is a good place to be for growth," I don't think that's what I said...


    "....and I think that too, because all conscious vibrations exist here, and that is why it seems physical." seems physical? It is physical using humankind's simple definition!

    "No one would desire to grow spiritually if everything was handed out to them, and on some dimensions that is what life is like." total conjecture

    "EVERYTHING is done for you regardless of whether its selfish, violent, greedy whatever you want is done for you." nonsense


    "I experienced it in the NDE." A near-death-experience is exactly that. An experience when you've appeared clinically to be close to death. What you experienced wasn't life in the beyond. They aren't the same as one another.....


    "Humans want to raise their children to be able to be a contribution to society and Consciousness wants every one of Its vibes to be able to make a contribution to this incarnated dimension." That's simply your convoluted opinion.
     
  7. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I’ve done my stuff. I’ve researched and contemplated all I found. Then out of the blue recently I got a big surprise about something I had felt comfortable with for a long time – spirituality.

    For a very long time I felt persuaded that experiences during life in-the-body enhanced the rate of personal spiritual progress. It’s what I thought spiritual guides had taught us. Nobody provided an alternative or at least I didn’t recognise it if they did.

    The words we use may mean different things to each of us. In a similar way we have different ideas about the way we came into being, both as spirit individuals and as humans. I’ve always thought we progressed spiritually towards a state of near spiritual perfection before we reach our end as individuals - progression from where we are spiritually now to a point where no further progress can be made. Recently all that changed.

    I still see us as from the source and identically similar to the source. When I say ‘us’ I’m referring to our ‘spirit selves’ our individual but spiritually-identical forms; identical ‘sparks’ of creative energy that animate every kind of personal existence. Those ‘sparks’ were spiritually perfect when they left the source to experience life as individuals and that spiritual perfection never changes. They don’t need to progress spiritually - they are already spiritually perfect. And when I refer to ‘they’ I’m actually meaning ‘us’, the spiritual us.

    We each are individuated sparks of that divine source, eternally spiritually-perfect but appearing as something less. Isn’t that the grandest of illusions?
     
  8. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    mac,
    May I ask what occurred to prompt this change in your view on this point?
     
  9. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    A friend on another website where I'm a regular asked me the same question and the answer is that I still don't know. My awareness changed after I'd been pondering a number of issues. It took me quite by surprise.
     
  10. kim marine

    kim marine Active Member

    Are you implying it is necessary to do some more contemplation?

    I often feel I am comfortable too, but something is always around the corner that stirs my mind up, so I suppose you have just made it clear Mac that I have a life of contemplation to look towards.
    Why do need to animate something less than perfect just to learn spiritually?


    Please, may I request that you share some of your new ideas with us?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  11. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    absolutely not

    absolutely not - I don't expect that anyone should, or needs to, do anything. My way is my way and is only someone else's way if they choose it.

    Where did you get this notion?



    I said my piece, shared my ideas, in the original posting, the one I keep bumping up to avoid it being swamped by a plethora of off-topic comments.
     
  12. kim marine

    kim marine Active Member

    I feel our souls or bodies, for lack of better words, which are not perfect, can eternally grow from the spark that animates it. The spark is eternally perfect and our soul learns from that spark that animates it, but it must search for itself as it animates this human body as it has temporarily forgotten Its true identity.
     
  13. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I write one thing and you quote it. My problem, kim, is that then your response implies something not in my original words. Why not start your own thread with your own ideas?
     
  14. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    You say "...our souls or bodies, for lack of better words...." OK then - a better word might be 'spirit' instead of soul. But body is pretty definitive - what alternate, "better" word do you want instead of 'body'?

    But they are completely different things yet you lump them together as if they're not - why?

    Moving on, the 'sparks' of creative energy - to use the words I originally wrote - NEVER forgets their identities, not even temporarily.... It's only the composite, corporeal human - the physical shell animated by its spirit - that is consciously unaware of its spiritual origin and identity. We don't know if we composite, corporeal humans forget who we are because - by definition - we won't know if we have forgotten.

    And for us all, on bodily death, our animating spirits, the eternal aspects of ourselves, again become free from the constraints they experience in their incarnate forms; individuals living in this particular physical dimension, our world, a place we call Earth.
     
  15. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Thanks. :)
     
  16. kim marine

    kim marine Active Member

    Yes, Mac, a better word would be 'spirit' instead of 'soul', but I felt I should try to use a word that would be easier to identify with for visitors to the ALF sight or someone who isn't familiar with the body being a projection of Consciousness. Roberta suggested previously about writing in a way easier to comprehend for visitors to the ALF forum. To me that is what the body is, a reflection of Consciousness living in us. I've experienced it and saw many different reflections of my various incarnations during the NDE. After all, 'soul' was probably first used to reflect who we are personally in Consciousness. I suppose that is why we incarnate, so we may learn to strengthen our compassion, as it requires developed, mature compassion to interact peacefully with someone who is different, but how can you see that someone is different if we don't come to live on this plane? As we live here we even continue to keep ourselves locked in our minds. That's kind of similar to computer forums where everyone looks like a flat computer screen, but of coarse I am only speaking figuratively.
     
    Amore likes this.
  17. Amore

    Amore Active Member

    I have to admit that some of your posts leave my mind in a twist but this is a brilliant post, Kim! Thank you :)
     
  18. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I give up, kim. - we may as well be speaking to one another in a foreign language that neither speaks well. :rolleyes:

    First sentence of your reply - just what do you mean when you say: "....but I felt I should try to use a word that would be easier to identify with for visitors to the ALF sight or someone who isn't familiar with the body being a projection of Consciousness."

    WHAT? "...the body being a projection of Consciousness" And that last word using an upper-case letter 'C' - what for - consciousness doesn't have a capital first letter.

    How on earth does that make it easier for visitors to ALF? It's a weird view of the word 'body' and hardly simpler for those unfamiliar with survival. As for the rest of your piece, yet again you're in 'refer to NDE' mode.

    I'm trying to be polite but isn't it time you accepted that no matter how great the profound impact your experience had on you personally it's three deades since it happened; this world has moved on but you haven't.

    I have tried to suggest on several occasions - as we have to other 'NDErs' here - that NDE isn't death and NDE experience doesn't necessarily result in a level of spiritual awareness similar to what we can expect after our actual death.

    You're basing most of what you say on a snap-shot view of a tiny snippet of 'the big picture' of life, death and survival. That's like looking at our world through a pin-hole in a bag over your head and thinking you know what the world is like - it's a very constricted field-of-view on which to base your wisdom.

    If I were to constantly refer to my first few experiences of the mysteries of life spiritual every time I wrote something, folk would rapidly get bored and might think: " Here we go - he's off again - boring, boring, boring...." And I'd agree with them!
     
  19. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    brilliant? :rolleyes:

    I guess it must just be me, then, who doesn't understand what kim is trying to say when she responds to what I write.

    Maybe I too should keep referring to my experiences in most of what I write?
     
  20. kim marine

    kim marine Active Member

    Yes, Mac, that would be nice hear of your experiences as you are living here being a human being both past and present! The time to be conscious of who you truly are is here and now!:)
     
  21. kim marine

    kim marine Active Member

    Thank-you Amore!:)
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
    Amore likes this.
  22. Amore

    Amore Active Member

    That would be very much welcomed and would "flesh out" your posts a lot.
     
    kim marine likes this.
  23. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I am already conscious of who I am here-and-now. I've achieved that through inner reflection over many years. Narcissistically talking about myself wouldn't change things. Going on about myself, or about my spiritual experiences, just isn't my way unless it helps in relating to someone's questions and perhaps help them by doing so.
     
    pandora97 likes this.
  24. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Why do they need to be fleshed out? Already I use more words than is warranted.
     
  25. Amore

    Amore Active Member

    I did not say they need to be fleshed out, I said I would welcome it. It's what I enjoy most when coming to a forum - people's personal experiences, their stories, interacting with them, is what makes the topic come alive. Otherwise I would just read books.

    But that's just me, my preference.
     
    kim marine likes this.
  26. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Fair comment - it's what you prefer but my experiences wouldn't necessarily add value to my thoughts and it's that I mistakenly thought you were getting at. Additionally I comment upon many topics where I have a little understanding but not direct experience. I prefer to be judged on the value - or otherwise - of what I say and not what I claim about myself that might influence someone's opinion.

    Talking about myself would pad out postings and result in them being even more wordy than presently - don't know how many would want that!
     
  27. kim marine

    kim marine Active Member

    What do you mean by "flesh out" Amore?
     
  28. pandora97

    pandora97 Active Member

    :D
     
  29. kim marine

    kim marine Active Member

    This afternoon I went for a ride and did a lot of thinking. You say, Mac, that the NDE isn't actual death. I agree, but actually the term "Near Death Experience" isn't a very accurate word anyway, because death doesn't exist to begin with. How can a person be near death when death is absent from our conscious experience? It is just a word we use that is fitting for the vibrational frequency this dimension exists in these days. The Nazarene displayed the experience to us that the body is not what is alive, but it is something that we are unable to identify with when Divine Consciousness is covered in flesh.
     
  30. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Of course death exists. We can argue about whether the human soul continues to exist in an afterlife or some other manner after death, and perhaps it does, but that doesn't mean that death doesn't exist. Believe me, my husband died. If he hadn't, he would still be here with me, body and soul, living our life together. He may exist in an afterlife, and it is my highest hope that he does (as long as he is happy and well and himself), but that does not negate the horrific (for me, and for others who love him) experience of his death.
     

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