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How did our existence get started?

Discussion in 'General Afterlife Discussions' started by TheUnknown, Oct 11, 2013.

  1. TheUnknown

    TheUnknown New Member

    If we are supposed to be immortal beings, what kick started our existence to begin with. Did some kind of higher power just decide that they were bored one day, and get this brainwave to force existence on people without their will or consent, just so that it could teach them "lessons"?

    To me it seems so senseless and completely selfish.
     
  2. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Good questions. I have no idea of the answers.

    One possibility is that there's a god of some kind who created us -- maybe out of boredom, maybe from some other impetus, who knows. If so, s/he may have done so to teach us lessons, though to me it would be silly/stupid to create beings just to teach them lessons, so I don't think that's it, and if it is then I agree that god is selfish.

    Another possibility is that some kind of god created us, but then lost control of the process and so hasn't had a hand in anything that has happened to us since.

    Another possibility is that some kind of god created us, but then lost interest and so while s/he could intervene in everything that happens to us, s/he chooses not to.

    Another possibility is that there is a god, but s/he is evil (I suppose that would make her/him a devil or demon, in the Judeo-Christian mythology).

    Another possibility is that there is no god.

    I'm sure there are more possibilities; those are just the ones that occur to me offhand.
     
  3. frith

    frith Member

    If there is any master plan behind life I don't put it up to some god. At least not a god that has any more power over anything other than hitting an on switch and letting whatever happens play out itself. He's a deadbeat dad if he existed at all.

    If we're immortal on some level and just going through this I have decided that this life is essentially a formality towards immortality. This universe and life in general has very specific rules governing it. A butterfly can only become a butterfly after its been an egg and then a caterpillar. If we're immortal the same applies here. We have to live a mortal life to turn immortal. There is no other reason behind it. Its an unfortunate formality made worse by how many of us react to it.

    Why anything at all exists or why those rules exist are beyond my capacity as a mortal human to understand other than it just does. There is not a god behind it, IMO. Life is very decentralized and I imagine the afterlife, should it exist at all, is too.
     
  4. Celera

    Celera Active Member

    I can only share my current, vague concept of this, which is a conglomerate of Christian and spiritualist thinking, and very possibly all wrong.

    But if "it's all about love" as Mikey says - and he certainly isn't alone in that -- then, there must be something to love. If God exists as a single entity, how can there be love? There must be other entities. And if the other entities are going to be capable of loving, they must be capable of not loving as well. Christians teach that God Himself is a divided triune being. That means the idea of "God is Love" is literally true, God is composed of multiple sub-entities that love each other as a Father and Son (should) love each other. To me that is the profound truth behind the teaching of the Trinity, whether one takes the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" part literally or not.

    On the other hand, we don't know that there is a "God" that existed by itself and then created other entities. It may be that we have all existed forever. Keep in mind that our concept of existing forever is hopelessly skewed while we are confined to this four-dimensional shoe box called "life on Earth."

    Although many here express feelings of resentment for having to live out your current lives, and believe your lives were forced upon you, keep in mind that if messages from the other side are to be believed, we are all volunteers. Like volunteers for military service, we may have signed up too impulsively, with too little investigation or with grand unrealistic dreams of heroism, only to find that we are spending our service peeling potatoes and swabbing decks, or starving in a POW camp. But volunteers nonetheless.
     
  5. Celera

    Celera Active Member

    I don't want to take over the conversation but I have to offer an alternative to the deadbeat dad image, as much as I empathize with the feeling.

    As a parent of adult children, who are very cool guys but also have each had struggles and made mistakes and failed painfully at things that matter, I have gained more understanding of the idea of a God who sets his children free and watches helplessly as we do all the wrong stuff. It's heartbreaking to see your children have bad luck and even more heartbreaking to see them make unwise -- and occasionally immoral -- choices. I could perhaps interfere more than I do, but they are adults and have the right to make these decisions on their own. I sometimes wish they were toddlers again so I could guide and protect them. Probably sometimes they wish that too. But that's not how it works.

    If there is a "God" in anything like the Christian sense, I think humanity must break his heart a million times a day. But we are adults with free will, and have to find our own way.
     
  6. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    Celera,

    I don't really like finding myself disagreeing with you, because I like you, but I find that I can't agree with everything you've just said.

    I do tend to think that love, loving each other, is the reason and driving force behind our existence, if there is one at all. However, I don't believe that a God needs to exist in order for that to be the case, in order for love to exist. I do not love God, if there is one (or more). I do, however, very much love my husband and my family. There are many, many atheists who (as per the definition) do not believe any sort of god exists or ever has existed, but they love their families and friends. Basically -- love does exist, and it can easily exist without any sort of god at all.

    Also -- suppose, for the sake of argument, that there is a god. In that case, I don't understand why you don't see that love can exist if that god is a single entity -- if you are saying that there must be more than one entity for there to be love between beings, then I would posit that it may be that if there is a god that is why it created humans. There's also the concept of loving yourself -- surely if there's a god, god could love itself, and could have loved itself even if it were the only being in the universe....

    It's also possible that there could be more than one god, as you said -- I'm just saying that's not the only option.

    I did not used to feel resentment at having to live my life -- I felt blessed, by my loving family and my wonderful husband, and the other good things in my life. there were bad things too, of course, but on the whole I felt blessed. now I do not. And while I believe it's possible I made the choice to come to earth, I do NOT believe that I chose for my husband to die -- I KNOW that I didn't, and that he didn't. So if I chose to come here at all, I did so blindly -- that may be god's fault for not telling me what would happen, or it may be my fault for being too trusting or too stupid. Whatever the cause, it won't happen again.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
  7. frith

    frith Member

    As always the lack of memory of volunteering for something like this puts such a theory out of the question for me.

    I've also read several pre-birth memory reports that state the opposite. That life is indeed involuntary and forced upon us.

    For me to believe the word of any afterlife contact here or elsewhere on the internet I would need some type of personal message conveyed. I know a lot of dead people at this point in my life who could send such a message and I haven't seen that happen.
     
  8. Celera

    Celera Active Member

    Luckily for us, then, liking and agreeing with are unrelated, because I like you too! Anyway, half the time I don't agree with myself a day or two later.


    We may sort of agree after all. What I meant was, if there is a "God" as a single entity, such as the god of Christianity/Judaism/Islam, how could this being sit alone in an empty universe saying, "It's all about love."? The idea has no meaning until this entity creates other entities.

    Of course the concept of love does not require God to exist, it just requires there be more than one entity capable of loving or not loving.
     
  9. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    lol, true enough.


    Ah, I see what you mean. well then as I said, if there is a god then maybe god created humanity to have some beings with which to share love? I don't know....

    I just can't believe in a loving god, when it allows our loved ones to die and doesn't give every single one of us proof beyond all doubt -- ideally just an inherent knowing, but any real proof would probably do -- that our loved ones continue to exist, as themselves, happy and at peace, and that we will be together again. I would never make my children live in such a fashion, not knowing if their loved ones continue to exist, and I am by no means any kind of god, I am just a good person. so I cannot believe that any sort of kind and loving god exists which would do that to its children, allow them to suffer that kind of pain. if anything -- and I am just thinking out loud here, as I go -- maybe it is humanity which originated love, and god, if there is one, had no idea what that was until it saw the love we have for each other. if that is the case, though, then god does not seem to have picked up the trait/ability, in my opinion.
     
  10. vic smyth

    vic smyth New Member

    This is a key point. We are trapped in a time dimension that only 'moves' one way. Imagine if you could only walk in a straight line in one direction with blinders on so that you can only see what's right in front of you. You do not even know that you can look up and down, or left to right, or turn around and retrace your steps to see where you came from before you took your first step. That's how we experience time. In other realms time may have many dimensions, or be zero dimensional where everything we experience is now. Space may also be zero dimensional, where we would be everywhere. In physics anything that travels at the speed of light is "everywhere, now", space is infinite and time stops. But our puny four-dimension bound minds cannot grasp this.

    Kind of makes me want to reincarnate as a photon.

    With Lovingkindness (metta),
    vic
     
  11. Carol and Mikey

    Carol and Mikey Golden Hearts

    Hi Vic,
    I totally agree with you and Celera on this point! My little "pea brain" cannot grasp this concept! :)
    Regarding the concept of God, my 90 year old very Catholic mother had some interesting thoughts and questions I would like to share.
    She asked me how can God possible watch over billions of people and judge their behavior, at the same time be helping us by answering our prayers, at the same time be greeting people when they go to Heaven, and so on? How can one man possibly handle all this??? And I said, Mom, I think God is far more than just one man sitting in a big chair! I believe God is beyond anything our human minds can comprehend!
    Carol
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
  12. Pinkroses

    Pinkroses Member

    Definitely, Carol! I've wondered all of these things as well. As a child, I asked a ton of questions. I asked my Mom where God came from and who created him. Her answer was: "No one created him; he was always here." That just confused me more. I even put God to the test one day and asked that he make a mark on a piece of paper to prove that he existed. I left a notepad and pen next to my bed before going to sleep. I was disappointed that it was blank the next morning.

    Those were they days when I thought of God as a man, a person, who could do the same physical things as me. Now I know that that image of God doesn't make sense. It was only when I started to view God as a powerful energy source that is all around us and present in all things, that things began to make more sense to me. Even still, the concept of God is just too complex for the human mind to ever fully comprehend!
     
  13. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Beloved friends, this is such a wonderful discussion! I wondered about it, too, for a long time. Where did we come from? And why?

    I think we've got to start with the understanding that our pea-brains are limited. Upper-level beings keep telling us that there are lots of things that we cannot possibly understand while we are limited to our bodies, and some of them urge us not even to try. Those are the ones who have been out of bodies for a lo-o-ong time! Of course we're going to try. Here is what I have come to think is true, based on decades of afterlife research and with a dash of A Course in Miracles thrown in:

    1) There is no separate God. Instead, the only thing that exists is God. And God is eternal. To me, this is the A-B-C of basic facts in which it's important that we ground all our thinking. You needn't call the Only Power God. Often I think of it as Mind. It's an infinitely creative and infinitely loving energy-like potentiality without size or form. Or rather, it's something like that - my little brain cannot, of course, comprehend it. But it's important always to keep in mind that nothing else whatsoever exists, so everything that we think exists is part of it. Including you and me.

    2) We believe that we are separate, but we're not separate. The fact that each of our minds is part of Mind and therefore infinitely connected to every other mind, but each mind operates an individual meat-robot here in this illusory environment that we call the material universe, gives us a false and distracting impression. We are all One.

    3) Nothing can harm us, and we are infinitely loved. If you have ever loved a child, you have had the tiniest glimmer of a fraction of the loving embrace of God - or Mind. Each of us is God's best-beloved child, essential and treasured, whole and complete and part of God and of every other mind.

    4) Within this illusion we have created a lot of mistaken ideas that we need to un-learn. We talk about our purpose for being here as learning - earth-life is a school - but I am coming to believe that we could as easily think of it as un-learning. We think we are separate. We think that evil exists. We think that doing selfish, unloving things can be a reasonable choice. At their core, our minds are part of Mind, and we know better. But our infinitely creative minds have created some nasty illusions that each of us is trying to un-learn.

    We never began and we never will end. We are eternally safe and infinitely loved. The fact that we have created this illusion of separation - for whatever reason, or for no reason - shouldn't distract us from that central fact of our existence!
     
  14. vic smyth

    vic smyth New Member

    ACIM teaches that we created this illusion as a rebellion against God, that this world and our separation from God is a "tiny, mad idea". After a few years this did not sit well with me so I rejected it. In my current worldview (subject to change based on my mood swings, your mileage may vary) we did not rebel against God, or fall from God's grace and are being punished. We created and are experiencing this illusory separation from God for a Good Reason. Though this Reason escapes us and seems as if we made a Big Mistake. Maybe we needed to experience what it's like to make a Big Mistake and live in world where God is elusive. Having experienced separation we hopefully will have learned valuable lessons and after we return Home, we won't make the same Mistake again, and will warn our spiritual companions not to make the same Mistake we did.

    With Lovingkindness (metta),
    vic's myth
     
  15. onemancrew

    onemancrew New Member

    I'm to sure what I think no more, what makes you think we even exist to start with?

    For all we know we could actually be tiny little people living on a tiny speck of dust stuck inside some giant bodies beard.

    Or we could be living inside a giant artificial fish tank with a lamp next to it and at night they put a big cardboard box over it but the box has millions of little holes in it which we think are the stars.

    EDIT, I can't subscribe to this thread??? Admin? It says file not found on a blue host page?
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2013
  16. bluebird

    bluebird Well-Known Member

    onemancrew,

    I tend to agree with Descartes' view that "Je pense, donc je suis" ("I think, therefore I am"). To me, the fact that I can think (and feel) proves to me that I am alive, though it doesn't prove anything to me beyond that (the nature of existence, whether there's an afterlife, whether there's a God, etc.).

    It is interesting to think of the possibilities, but I think we can genuinely discount at least some of them. To take one of your examples, we know that we aren't in a giant fish tank thinking holes are stars -- we know this because humans have actually been to the moon, so we know that the earth's moon, at least, is real.

    Ultimately, I don't think we can really know the full nature and purpose of existence while we are alive. If there is an afterlife, I don't know if we are able to comprehend the full nature and purpose of existence even then.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  17. Celera

    Celera Active Member

    There are serious physicists who think we might all be in some sort of hologram, playing out a previous reality, or something like that. I'm not sure how that would change anything, really. Even the Whos in Whoville had a functioning society and an existence just as legitimate as Horton's. :)

    I don't usually subscribe to threads, but I tried it just now and also got a 404 message. Probably something that needs to be adjusted since the software that runs this site was updated. Meanwhile, onemancrew, the forum isn't that busy, you should be able to put the thread in your Favorites or Bookmarks or whatever to check back and see if there is anything new.
     
  18. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Dear Onemancrew, I think your comment is profound. There is a never-used tub in the bathroom near my office door, and two little insecty creatures live in it. I won't let the tub be cleaned because I like watching them live their lives in what they think is the entire world.

    Where your subscription issue is concerned, since a recent update we have less time to post before we get timed out and no one seems able to fix that, so if it happens again just copy your drafted post, reload and log in to the site, and paste back your post and submit it. This works for me every time. I'm sorry it's such a nuisance!
     
  19. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Carol has also referred to problems posting here. It's weird because I spend lots of time composing messages (I'm thick and slow!) but I haven't experienced being timed out.

    Now I'm in the UK and wonder if it's because your server is fed through others which are buffering my material from this side of the pond and maybe I'd have similar problems otherwise. Don't know if that info. would be of any help to your service providers? probably not....

    Incidentally I use quite a lot of websites and AF is definitely the slowest to respond but I always thought it might be down to the server being at near-to-full capacity. Maybe it's all part of your service providers' problems? I've also found that the editing feature of the Blog page doesn't work correctly for me and maybe that's another fault that also needs sorting out? I used to be able to edit without problem until recently, perhaps since the hacking troubles several weeks back.

    I do agree with the desirability of copying material before trying to post it, something I got into the habit of doing way back when after losing important postings. And if I write something long or complex, I use a wordprocessor and save it as with any material. It's then easy to copy it and plonk it into a thread ready prepared and if things go pear-shaped, nothing's lost.
     
  20. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    My guess would be that there's no more chance of knowing everything after we've passed than there was before but the depth of our ignorance is likely to be a little less. ;)

    Baby steps as with most things... :)
     

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