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Discussion in 'General Afterlife Discussions' started by mac, Jun 25, 2018.

  1. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Elsewhere we're discussing belief compared with evidence/proof and how they differ.

    It struck me that we have on ALF some very good practical examples, members who may consider their experiences as proof of survival and life beyond death - even if they don't speak of it that way and don't expect others to be persuaded.

    Here are just a few examples. One member had a vivid NDE that left her in no doubt about continued life in the world of the spirit and her continuing connection to spirit helpers she met during the brief time she spent there. Another is bereaved yet tells of his continuing communications with his beloved wife. And a bereaved mother became re-united with her lost son and learned how to communicate with him. Additionally we should not forget that this website's owner is guided by the spirit of none other than Thomas Jefferson and she has been inspired to write numerous books about afterlife issues as a consequence of her trans-dimensional communications.

    Others have experienced, and may continue to experience, signs and symbols so strong and evidential that they, too, are convinced.

    Would it be fair or respectful to suggest that the conviction, the certainty about survival, experienced by individual members such as these is simply their belief?
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
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  2. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    Dear Mac, I guess I am impatient at this point with the word "belief." It implies a personal conviction only, and one that could be entirely idiosyncratic, based on no evidence at all. Would we say that the passage of time is a "belief," or light, or the apparent solidity of matter? No. We consider time, light, and solid matter to be aspects of an objective reality: we believe they have been proven to be real. And yet, they are not objectively real at all! They are aspects of this material universe, which even scientists know is less than five percent of what we can demonstrate exists. Time, physical light, and solid matter have no existence in most of reality. On the other hand, the things we talk about here - the energy levels of the afterlife, the primacy of consciousness, the eternal existence of the human mind, and so on - in fact do exist EVERYWHERE. So to talk about them as mere beliefs simply because mainstream science remains stubbornly ignorant seems wrong, don't you think? And when someone experiences aspects of the eternal reality that afterlife researchers can now objectively support - a NDE, for example, or a communication from a loved one - then their certainty about their experience is no more a mere belief than flicking a light switch produces a mere belief in light. Sooner or later, we are going to have to swallow hard and say that when individuals experience common aspects of the greater reality that we now know exists, that is indeed a real experience!
     
  3. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    I get impatient too, Roberta, but when individuals are told of our conviction, of our total certainty and why but still equate that to 'belief' whadya do? I've tried my best to explain what I mean but failed.
     
  4. jimrich

    jimrich Active Member

    For me, what you are speaking of is "judgement" or evaluation, so, if someone does not or cannot accept that I have had several direct and personal experiences with Disincarnates, they are free to judge, label or "see" it anyway they wish. I'd prefer a skeptic simply say they don't believe me ("I don't believe or like that!") rather than rudely pass judgements such as: "Oh, that's just your belief!" But no matter what someone says about my reality/experiences, I am still left with accepting and honoring my own reality/truths so.........to each their own. Diss me if you must but have the courage to express your own thoughts/feelings/beliefs with an "I" statement such as "I think you're crazy." etc.
    I do not "get impatient" since healthy self esteem and self respect is all I need to handle the judgements, criticism and HATRED coming from frightened skeptics. History has shown over and over how harshly judged and even murdered individuals were proven right long after the skeptics disposed of them (Jesus?) Sorry but I have no "evidence" whatsoever to offer regarding my experiences and contacts with Disindarnates and Heaven. Oh well............
     
  5. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Individuals will do that anyway, without your setting them free to do it.


    Why is it that rudely passing judgements when in your earlier paragraph you just wrote that "...they are free to judge, label or see it anyway they wish."?



    Although they may not agree with what another thinks or says folk do not necessarily think someone is crazy to behave the way they do. But some may still see personal conviction born of experience as 'belief' and it's that issue that was the central forum topic.

    You don't engage here very often about general issues, mostly it's about your personal experiences and situation. I don't know what you experience elsewhere but here on ALF you certainly don't face judgements, criticism or HATRED (sic) from frightened skeptics.


    This thread isn't about skepticism. It was intended to reflect upon the reasons that personal conviction about survival et al is different from belief. You are someone who has had, and presumably still has, just such experiences and are totally convinced by that and other experience. Yours is not belief.
     
  6. jimrich

    jimrich Active Member

    LOL, sorry, I should have wrote "they are free to rudely judge, label of see it anyway they wish." Semantics are tricky, eh?


    Is this a complaint or just criticism? Please explain this comment.

    Is this your opinion or some kind of fact?

    Based on what you and Robert have written (Roberta: "Dear Mac, I guess I am impatient..." Mac:"I get impatient too, Roberta,") I see this thread as being about your impatience with those who do not or will not believe you.
    I just do the best that I can!
    Well, I'd keep on "explaining" and sharing my realities and truths despite these "failures".
     
  7. jimrich

    jimrich Active Member

    Where is her "evidence/proof"?
    This might be me but I have no "evidence or proof" other than to bring in the Readers who connected me with my wife here to testify.
    Does the mother have any evidence or proof to offer me/us?
    Can she prove it?
    Can or will they prove it?
    Without some kind of concrete proof, I'd call it "belief", imagination, delusion, denial, assumption, dreaming, guessing and a lot more but definitely not an established fact.
    I am currently watching a TV show called: "Seatbelt Psychic" where a psychic cab driver TELLS folks about some "dead" relative, etc. and the passengers "believe" him and then they break down in tears as their Disincarnate relatives communicate through the Psychic but there is no concrete proof that any Disincarnate is even present beyond what the Psychic driver SAYS and the passengers BELIEVE! It is a very moving show BUT presents no evidence or proof of anything beyond how the passengers believe and respond to what the Psychic TELLS them. The passengers go on to testify to the camera just how happy and relieved they are and how the Reading has changed their lives.
     
  8. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    It wasn't semantics that led to my response.


    Neither - it was an observation.


    fact

    You see this thread somewhat myopically perhaps.

    My question had been rhetorical.....

    My way is to try to relate what I've learned to the circumstances others find themselves in. Simply repeating the same things in the same way doesn't equate to explaining them better.
     
  9. mac

    mac senior member Staff Member

    Ask her yourself if you're truly interested.

    Did you think I was asking you to provide evidence or proof?


    I really do feel you've failed to understand the intended thrust of this thread.... :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018 at 1:27 PM

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