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BruceAdama's Thread

Discussion in 'General Afterlife Discussions' started by BruceAdama, Jan 9, 2013.

  1. BruceAdama

    BruceAdama Established Member


    Well, in regards to love, you are wrong, because if we assume that we're living in Heaven, with God, then God and Heaven ARE love, so it (love) would actually be what we know best of all. And as I indicated, according to the NDE accounts I read, whoever was reading the experience from the book of a given life, to them it would seem as if they were actually living it, in every way. So you have the experience, right there.

    As for me personally, as I have stated so often before, I have NO desire whatsoever to learn any kind of lesson that can be learned here, nor do I plan to indulge the curiosity of any souls up there, by learning for them. Let them do it. The sooner my time here ends, the better.
  2. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Have you heard the saying that a man's worth is determined by how he reacts under pressure, not when everything is going well? Well, that's actually true from an afterlife perspective. In the Summerland, everything is perfect and blissful. So really, how challenging is it to be nice there, when you have everything you could ever desire and everyone is unbelievably kind and humble? You can read about/watch suffering on earth, but it's not the same. You have to come here and experience it in order to learn how to deal with it and, eventually, how to grow past it.

    Allow me to use an analogy: Let's say you're learning to drive a car for the first time. You have to learn because it will open up endless possibilities and freedoms for you. You can watch all the videos and read all the manuals you want, but that still won't help you to react under pressure (e.g. if a child runs into the road, or another cars is going to hit you). You have to actually take the wheel and learn, through experience. So is it with the spiritual growth. Reading about it or watching it will only get you so far, you have to experience suffering to grow from it.

    Believe it or not, you do want to learn and grow. Otherwise you simply wouldn't be here. No one forced your hand to get you get here. This life and the circumstances within it were your own choice, without outside coercion. So, if you are suffering, then there is something you that you are meant to learn from it. You wouldn't subject yourself to it otherwise.
  3. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    This is what I think we as humans cannot fully grasp during earthly life. You are absolutely correct that spiritual beings have the ability to simulate the process of suffering and imperfection for their own spiritual growth. They can do this to help them learn, for better or for worse, with no permanent side-effects or damage. It's no more real, to them, than a video game - although it can have a serious impact on them. That, my friend, is call life. What happens here is important, no doubt, but no more permanent than what happens in a computer simulation, because that's all this is.
  4. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    I'm sorry - I somehow missed your last post to me when I wrote the above replies.

    You are right: spiritual growth, in theory, should not be needed. The twist though is that, in all likelihood, spiritual growth is not needed. Perhaps no one can know with absolute certainty what happened to spur the creation of this reality and our mission of growth, but the best assertions come from A Course in Miracles. It is suggested that part of God decided, mistakenly, to split from Itself, just to see what would happen. (That will seem odd, I realize, but understand that we really cannot begin to grasp how something like God might operate.) God, as a whole, realized that this was a bad idea and stopped the separation as soon as it occurred.

    So, for all intents and purposes, the separation never did occur. However, in that instant when part of God was separated, time (and probably space) were created. And so, in order to rejoin God, we have to become spiritually perfect again, from our own perspective. Really, we are perfect and part of God right now, and everyone will eventually get to that point here as well. It's just a matter of time!

    In my own opinion, that is why earthly life is necessary.
    Widdershins3 likes this.
  5. BruceAdama

    BruceAdama Established Member

    Andrew, great posts, and actually, your last reply makes quite a bit of sense to me... I can actually totally accept and understand the idea of part of God splitting apart due to simple and basic curiosity, so I can actually understand that argument, and it does make sense. No argument from me on that.

    MY problem is that "all-inclusiveness" of physical life. I can actually accept without argument all of your explanations about how a particular given soul might want to live a life here. But why should I, if I have no desire to? Please allow me to put it to you this way:

    Let us say you are a soul in Heaven, and are reading through a book of life. Let us say that you "read" the story of another soul's incarnation that perished horribly in a fire. You KNOW from experiencing that soul's incarnation, that the fire was painful, horrible, and a brutal way to die. You KNOW that. Knowing that, would you REALLY want to still experience that firsthand? I for one, would not. You are certainly free to, but all or most souls should not have to go through a life experience, just because a few have something they want to learn.

    It is BECAUSE the Summerland is not challenging and blissful that I would want to forever remain there... I have NO desire whatsoever to learn anything here that I cannot learn up there, because up there, I can do it in safety, and at my own pace, I might add. Which again, leads me to another point which is often reinforced right here on this very forum... that supposedly in Heaven, there is no time, yet somehow, we learn lessons faster here on Earth...


    Okay... so we learn faster in a place with time than with a place WITHOUT time... uh-huh...

    Think about how silly this sounds. If time is not an issue, why would time be an issue, lol? If we quite literally have all the time in the universe to learn, we can learn not only what we could learn here, but do so at our OWN pace. What does it matter to God if we learn fast, if there is no time at all where we come from? By the way, there IS time in the afterlife, no matter what anyone says... nobody ever thinks of time as what it truly is... time is not a measurement... INCREMENTS of time are measurements... hours, days, years... that is not time. Put simply, time is existence... time is the scientific word for God, because time is, always was, and always will be. You are born, you live, and you die. That is time. So it is in the afterlife, as well... you are born to the physical plane, live, die, are brought back to Heaven, and live in Heaven until your next incarnation. THAT is time, because that is a sequence of events. There is time. Everywhere. Even God is not outside of time... God existed in 1591, and God exists in 2013... during all that time, God existed. That is time. God existed before the universe, and will exist after the universe. That is time. There will always be time, no matter where you are.
  6. Bruce, the bottom line, at least according to my worldview, is that we all made a freewill, well-intentioned choice to sacrifice our heavenly existence for the greater good, so that maybe our spiritual companions back Home would not have too. They will not have to experience this often crappy world first hand, because we did. They can read the book in the great hall of records that we are currently writing. Granted, like you, it's a choice I don't think I'd make again (next time around one of them can incarnate and I'll sit back and act as guardian angel). But we're here, we might as well make the best of it for ourselves, and others. Besides, aren't you the least bit curious how this silly game of make believe all turns out in the end?

    With Lovingkindness (metta),
    vic's myth
  7. God, by definition as omniscient, cannot make a mistake. Only an imperfect being can make a mistake. If God decided to split from Itself, it must have been for a Good Reason. I love ACIM, especially the Workbook, but I take issue with some of its concepts like "the ego created the world as an attack on God".

    Taking this a step further; if God cannot make a mistake, God cannot create imperfect beings that need to learn how to love and forgive. We are here as imperfect beings in an imperfect world for a Good Reason. That reason may not seem very obvious which is what makes our existence here such a puzzling challenge. Maybe it's as simple as experiencing imperfection first hand. But we are not here, at least according to my worldview, because God or we made a mistake (even though it often seems that way).

    What really fascinates me as someone who has spent an enormous amount of time studying the gospels, is what Jesus said as to why we are here in the first place -- absolutely nothing -- the question is never really asked. It's taken for granted that we are here, the entire focus is what we should do while we're here to be reach a good afterlife. The answer, of course, boils down to "Love your neighbor as yourself". "Judge not and you shall not be judged, condemn not and you shall not be condemn, forgive and you shall be forgiven, the measure you mete is the measure you'll get."

    So why we are here is a mystery, but what we're to do while we're here is quite clear.

    With Lovingkindness (metta),
    vic's myth
    Widdershins3 likes this.
  8. BruceAdama

    BruceAdama Established Member

    I am not at all curious, because as I have emphasized before, I have no vested interest in the game, its rules, or playing it. I know you truly believe that we all willingly wanted to come here, but I assure you 200% that with ME personally, I never wanted to... I should be the person reading the book, not doing the work, because I have no intention or desire to do it. If someone else wants to, let them, by all means. I feel cheated and wronged that I have been forced here, to do this for the amusement of others, while they sit back and do nothing. If it were at all possible, I'd ask God to just erase this life, and keep me up there as if nothing ever happened... let someone else go through this crap... not me. I don't take well to being wronged or cheated. When it happens, I want either justice or revenge.

    Exactly... this proves that God IS imperfect, and has made mistakes, for he has created an imperfect plan, using an imperfect world, which is being quite imperfectly executed. You're right... things are a mystery. But I want to unravel it so that I may know the truth. Again, I know all my responses may totally make it seem like I'm rebuffing any explanation or counter to my arguments, but that's only because nothing I hear directly confronts the flaws I point out directly head-on, and explains or justifies them. I understand the reasons an individual soul MIGHT have for wanting to come here and live. But I still don't understand why that same fate should await most or all souls, even those who genuinely do not wish it, such as myself. Same with the argument against the veil... nobody has yet given me a solid and concrete reason why it would not do more good than harm, to dismantle the veil, especially when you take into account the library with the collected books of life I mentioned. This is why I sound so stubborn... because I'm confronting what I see to be flaws head-on, and trying to force answers from them.
  9. BruceAdama

    BruceAdama Established Member

    Let me add that it's not just the "spiritual Earth school" that I have no interest in learning lessons from... it's just the way I am... I was the same when my parents forced me to go to college for a few years, until I finally told them F this... I'm just gonna get a job and work. So I dropped out. I didn't want to go to college, I had no desire to go to college, and I was vehemently against going to college, so I dropped out, and during my time there didn't really do anything.

    I felt that when high school was over and done with, that's it. I have fulfilled my legal obligation for school, and now I can do WTF I want. I don't have any desire to sit in a room and be lectured to, assigned work, constrained by a deadline, and then have my intelligence judged by a letter on a piece of paper. I was done with that garbage when I graduated high school. If there is something I want to learn, I will learn it on my own, and by my own free will. I won't be forced into anything.
  10. Intbel

    Intbel New Member

    My current understanding.

    (Subject to change, this is not presented as truth
    though it may well contain some grains of truth or signposts to some truth)

    By remaining in the realm of Love we cannot fully comprehend what is Love.
    To do this, we have to experience what is not Love.

    Love is God. God is Love. Love's objective is to express, share and experience it's self by which means it can know it's self.

    Being infinite 'tis shared and expressed in an infinite number of ways in an infinite number of forms.

    To fully know it's self it must fully know what it is not - also in an infinite number of ways in an infinite number of forms and these are created, human or otherwise and we mistakenly refer to them as 'godless' beings.

    Love (or 'god' if you insist) is like a hologram. Every minute expression of it is a minute replica of the whole.
    Every minute expresion has all the attributes of the whole, albeit in minute degrees of quantity and effectiveness.

    Truly, then, it can be said "God is in all things".

    Still with me?

    Okay. To answer the question "why are we here?" there is the obvious answer "To help each other", that is a given.

    In addition, Love (or God, if you still insist) must forget it's self in order to realise it's self.
    Being minute replicas of Love, individuated expressions of Love, we also must forget our selves to be able to realise our selves.
    Thus the vast majority of folks have a hard time believing they are in essence, Love, for they have been taught that Love is an emotion, or is an illusionary product of brain chemistry. This could not be accomplished in the realm(s) of Love. So to experience what we need to experience, we are here. Not that earth is Loveless. Earth herself is of Love. 'Tis that having forgotten what we really are, we have to rediscover ourselves and in the process, the Love which we are re-awakens (or should do so) and we do begin to realise our selves.

    If you really insist on using the term "God" then the same applies. We have been taught that God is something separate from us, some are taught that to "connect with God" we are needing an intermediary and worse - that we need an intermediary who will not only enable us to connect with God but will take our burdens, be punished for what we have done so that we will be pleasing to God and so be permitted to enter into God's personal domain. We are also taught that this only works if we believe it. And if we don't believe it (how could any rational mind do so?) vile unpleasantness is all we will have in our future. In the process of applying this nonsenses in our daily lives it soon becomes clear they do not serve us well and make no sense. So we make a serious effort to discover the truth of the matter. Those who persevere come to some truth and discover that Love, er, God ... underpins all things, is within all things and really is, all there really is.

    I think that covers about everything, unless I've missed something?

    Oh ... one point. One may read a detailed, graphic account of what it is like to be burned to death in a fire.
    But one would not really have a full understanding unless one experienced it.

    Today, we have detailed graphic accounts of massacres and other horric atrocities.
    How can we possibly have an accurate perception of them? We have never experienced them.
    If we did have a full understanding of them, we'd not read about them in some so-called newspaper, mutter "tut tut" and then turn to the next piece of sensationalised nonsense which passes for journalism these days - we'd be totally outraged!

    Equally, unless you have had experiences of one or more sexual relationships, what can you possibly know of it them, really, just from erotic literature and films?

    Reading accounts of others we may well believe, believe most strongly, but the real knowing and understanding of that knowing comes via personal experience.
    To fully know, understand and appreciate anything we have to experience what it is not.

    (On earth we are experiencing what we are not - this is the reason for us being here)

    That reminds me of a pet peeve - marriage guidance counsellors who have never been married; bereavement counsellors who have never experienced a bereavement; drug-addiction counsellors who have never experienced withdrawal symptoms; those who dare to counsel survivors of suicide with out ever experienced the pitch black of hopelessness and rape counsellors who have never been raped - how dare they have the temerity to assume they have a clue as to what their clients have experienced?! Grrr.

    ~ ♥ ~


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