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BruceAdama's Thread

Discussion in 'General Afterlife Discussions' started by BruceAdama, Jan 9, 2013.

  1. BruceAdama

    BruceAdama Member

    Hello, all...

    It's been some time since I've last been here, and that's been due to various things, mostly a series of hard drive and PC issues. Thankfully, I can report ONE bit of good news... after a complete FOUR years of unemployment and job-searching, someone finally hired me, so I am working again, and starting the process of rebuilding my finances again, having to quite literally start from absolute zero, at age 35. So at least there's that. But other things are still pretty much as they were. In any case, I wanted to start my very own thread here to post my various random thought/questions/musings about the afterlife, God, and the reasoning behind things, since I look at things in an analytical and logical way. If something puzzles me, I have to know why, and I don't rest until I find the answer. And since those here who know me are well-aware of the "bad-blood" between me and God, I figured I'd keep everything here in my own thread, so as to not be accused of filling the other threads up with garbage. Those here can choose to reply to something I post here, or they can choose not to. It matters not to me. This is basically just a place for me to post my thoughts on various things. To start, I will begin with a couple of things:

    A PARADOX

    I was sitting in my car the other day, waiting to clock in for work, and I was pondering the memories I have of being sent here to this life against my will, under vehement protest, and how I pretty much hate this life, and my conflict with God. It was then that a deliciously ironic thought came across my mind... what if God actually sent me here because of the very fact that I want nothing to do with him, and wanted to be away from him? If that were true, then in an ironic way, he gave me what I wanted... life on the physical plane, where I can do what I wish, and have the feelings I wish to have. This would actually make some twisted sense, if it didn't ignore other factors that are important to take into account...

    It (as far as I know) has only been THIS life and these life circumstances that have cultivated and given rise to my deep dislike for God, and the way he does things. That being the case, I would have had no cause to be angry at God before I was born, as my circumstances would have been different. I have said that my previous life ended because I was hit by a car as a small child (toddler-age). While that is an unfortunate event, I would not have been old enough to have been felt "cheated" by it, or have cultivated any anger from it... it simply happened. Now, I may be wrong about that, and this is where the paradox aspect comes into play... this is what leads me into my next point and questions, which I have asked before, but have yet to receive a satisfactory answer on...

    The so-called "Veil of Forgetfulness". When we are sent here, we forget everything about the afterlife, and what was before. As I have (rightly) stated before in this forum, the very idea of this veil is simply beyond stupid, for it is by its very nature, counterproductive to God's own so-called plan. If we are sent to Earth to learn a lesson, then it makes sense to do so, and take that knowledge with to the afterlife, where it can be shared by all. But installing something that blocks memory of those lessons is counterproductive, because it means we have to keep learning the same lessons over and over and over again. Stupid and redundant. Beyond that, it merely prolongs whatever breakthrough we are supposed to attain from our lessons. NOBODY here has ever been able to give me a satisfactory explanation for the veil that would address all my factual flaws that are inherent in it. If someone can, I welcome them to do so. In order to fully explain something, you need to look at it in intimate detail, and examine ALL aspects of it... including the flaws. The veil is inherently and deeply FLAWED by its very nature, and in its very principle. Try as you may, you cannot deny that. You can certainly ignore it, but you cannot deny it. To remove the veil is to greatly accelerate the evolution of humanity AND God's plan, for when we can know of all our mistakes, we can avoid them in the future, without wasting time repeating them over and over and over. Evolution opposed to stagnation. Now, one member here once said that some people may choose to do the wrong thing, regardless of what they know to be right or wrong, and this is quite true, which only serves to further prove my point that absolutely nothing in God's plan would suffer by removing the veil, because when it all comes down to it, it's all about free will. So God still gets to run his little social experiment, and we get the benefit of greatly accelerated evolution. It's all about choice. It's like I told my best friend once... absolute power does NOT corrupt... it depends on the mind. If you give Jesus absolute power, he will do good and help the world. If you give Satan absolute power, he will do evil, and hurt the world... it's all about mindset and individual choice.

    So unless I can fully understand what went on before I was born, I cannot discount the possibility that I was indeed sent here completely against my will, under intense protest from me. Jesus had the luxury of communing directly with God, and knew what his role was, and how it would affect the world. He harbored no hate or anger because of it, because he had CLARITY.
     
  2. Intbel

    Intbel New Member


    Hiyas Bruce. Such statements as "NOBODY here has ever been able to give me a satisfactory explanation for the veil that would address all my factual flaws that are inherent in it. If someone can, I welcome them to do so" I find difficult to resist so to get rid of the difficuly, I respond to them.

    I am convinced that although we generally have no recall of any of our previous inhabitations of Earth, any lessons, knowledge and wisdom we gain from them is retained.

    One example: Becoming less selfish to the point (and beyond) of becoming generous is something which is learned. This being so, when two children, raised in the same family are each given a bag of sweets and one immediately offers them around and the other scuttles off holding the bag of sweet protectively so no-one else can have one - why the difference? From whence came this learning in such a short time? I conclude the child brought this learning with him/her from previous experience.

    I think it is desireable that we are unable to recall past experiences because if we did, we'd probably spend so much time and effort perhaps attempting to do something about the consequences of our choices last time. Some folks may even seek revenge on folks who caused them discomfort and if those folks have "died" may seek revenge on the family of the supposed offenders. This mindset is not uncommon, there are many family feuds which continue when the original argument may have occurred several generations previously.

    Recollection of previous experiences would impede our progress during our current experience.

    Anyway, what use knowing of past experiences? Not at all important. What we gain is of value and of some import - not how, when or where those gains were made.

    You may or may not find that explanation satisfactory. I'll go with it until I can think of a better explanation.



    ~ ♥ ~
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
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  3. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    I do apologize, dear Bruce, for that fact that we have not been able to explain the concept of "the veil" to you in a satisfactory manner. As usual, Intbel's answer is spot-on accurate, but please allow me to take a swing at this as well.

    Briefly: Your argument, that God's plan would be accelerated without the veil, is not logical in my opinion. The point of living on earth is to work and grow because that is the right thing to do. We have to come here to shift for ourselves and learn for ourselves in the process. True growth often comes from difficulty. Tell me, if we realized, fully and completely, that our earthly difficulties are no more permanent than a kindergartener's block tower being knocked over, would we really try to succeed in life? Would we take risks for others, knowing that their suffering wasn't "real" (in terms of the Greater Reality)? I don't think we would. Being killed on earth would become as trivial and mundane as being killed in a video game. Not much growth would happen, so God's plan, as it were, would actually be slowed down immensely in my opinion. You are, of course, free to believe whatever you feel is best!

    And also: Congratulations on having found employment! That is wonderful news!
     
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  4. BruceAdama

    BruceAdama Member

    Thank you both, for your replies. Intbel,
    this is exactly why I argue in favor of removing the veil, because don't you see... to change is to grow, and to learn more! If we did something wrong in your previous life, would you not want to make up for it, by doing something better? Suppose you were a murderer in the last life... wouldn't it feel great if knowing that, that you could choose to try and make up for it by doing charity work in this life, or helping people in some fashion? That is my point, that not knowing is what impedes progress, not improves it. That's like saying cancer will go away if you don't know you have it. Untrue. If you DO know you have it, at the very least, you can act to do something about it, or try your very best to make the most out of a bad situation. But if you don't have that knowledge, nothing can be done at all.

    Andrew, again, your reply leads directly to another, more basic argument I made here back when I first showed up, which is that life on this plane itself is basically useless and not needed. I mean, if "Heaven" is nothing but peace and love and joy, why would we even "need" or want to come here? But that argument is for another one of my posts, which I will deal with soon. To respond directly to your point, if we accept the legitimacy of life here, than yes, true growth comes from difficulty. However... my point is why must we RELIVE the exact same difficulty over and over and over again? We should face a challenge, and learn from it, and retain the knowledge learned from it, so we don't make the same mistake twice, and can move on (progress) to conquering newer challenges, and gaining even more knowledge. Think of it this way... you are a parent telling a small child not to touch a hot pot of boiling water, because the child will get burned, and it will hurt. Being a curious child, the child ignores you, and does it anyway, and of course, gets burned. If you say nothing after that, and simply assume the child learned its lesson, there is nothing to stop the child from trying it again, thinking maybe something would be different. BUT... if you were to record a video of the child burning itself, and then show it to the child every time it had the idea to touch the pot, it would be reminded of the mistake, and that doing so resulted in pain, and would not do it any longer. This is why removing the veil is the logical thing to do, because repetition leads to stagnation, and retention of knowledge leads to progress. Please know that I mean NO offense with anything I write... I'm just trying to examine and understand. I encourage questions about what I write... it forces me to rethink and explain my positions.

    And thank you for the comment on my employment. Yes, I am very happy to be working again.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  5. Intbel

    Intbel New Member


    I understand the argument. I disagree with the argument.
    Reason: Guilt.
    To be aware that one may have "killed" another previously one may be so full of feelings of guilt and aye, remorse - how would one overcome that? Helping others is a fine thing to do (we should be doing that anyway) but how could helping Mr. A overcome feelings regarding Mr. B?

    That burden will have been dealt with one way or another and whatever one needed to learn regarding that experience will already have been learned. After all, if that learning has not taken place, one would not want to make amends. As to retribution - as opposed to punishment, let's call it making amends - that appears to be an automatic process which, depending upon circumstances and other factors could well be resolved "upstairs" before returning here. Or not.

    There is much learning and healing "upstairs" along with all manner of work. One is able to make amends from either side, whichever is appropriate for the individual.

    If we re-incarnate, it is for a new experience, much of its purpose to learn some of what has not already been learned.

    Of course, it is also possible that nothing has been learned at all. (Very unlikely or very rare, one might suppose).

    In that case how could one learn here, other than to be murdered one's self and witness the heartbreak of those who care about us, spouses, children, especially, perhaps? If this is so, then to remember the past experience would certainly inhibit our development in every aspect of our lives because we'd be living in fear, constantly terrified of attack.


    Heh heh - but that'd be okay, I guess, we'd be safe, 'cos we'd be diagnosed as extremely paranoid, would be forcibly drugged into extremely passive docility while locked away in an asylum.

    But then, could be murdered by the individual in the next cell who didn't take the medication. So one would have to kill him first.
    But that would not happen - be so doped up and dumbed down wouldn't be able to figure it out.

    :rolleyes:

    ♥​
     
  6. Wonderer

    Wonderer New Member

    Congratulations Bruce for finding work. I'm sure that you feel better.

    Very interesting post regarding the veil. And I think that the answer is not straight forward...and no, I don't have it. But I'm just giving some food for thought.

    I think that how things work in the afterlife are very much different from how we understand them from this physical plane. Perhaps, we can't even understand them now at all.

    As you might know, time and space do not exist in the afterlife. It's something that our consciousness sees on this physical plane. So what you are seeing as linear events/lives could be all wrong. Imagine if life is like a play. So, if we have lots of lives, imagine that you are taking part in all the plays at the same time. It does not make much sense, but that is why we might not understand how things work.

    So, I'm just saying.....and showing that the answer could be one that we cannot understand now ;). I myself is having quite a tough life at the moment. I'm not finding answers like you, but at least I am focusing on being positive, following my instinct and gut feeling and trying to live life out of love.

    But we are all different, so I understand. And I also understand that life can be quite frustrating.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  7. vic smyth

    vic smyth New Member

    Simply to experience not-Heaven. We're like angelic children playing a silly game of make believe; What would it be like to live as imperfect beings in an imperfect realm, a place where we see God's footprints everywhere, but not God? So we created this imperfect world and this imperfect self. Of course this begs the question, Now that we've experienced it why can't we just go back Home? That would be too easy. If you like to do jigsaw puzzles, do you buy a child's puzzle with 25 pieces that you can put together in a few minutes, or something more challenging? Bruce, you're a brave soul to have signed up for such a challenging assignment. If you feel like you've bit off more than you can chew, you are not alone in feeling that way.

    Of course this is only my worldview, your mileage may vary.

    With Lovingkindness (metta),
    vic's myth
     
  8. Celera

    Celera Active Member

    First, congrats on the new job. Being unemployed and out of funds is brutal, I know, I've been there too. Money doesn't buy happiness, but poverty sure doesn't make you any happier either. And I'm glad you are back, you're a thoughtful and interesting person.

    The gist of your argument, Bruce, seems to be that the Universe (or whatever is the correct term for "everything that exists on all planes") is badly designed. The whole concept should have been set up entirely differently. In your proposal for how the Universe should instead have been designed, you make some interesting points. But I don't want to talk about those.

    What I wonder is, let's stipulate that you are right. We are in the hands of an incompetent God/Force/FSM, doing meaningless exercises for no good reason. Is there some Board of Directors to which we can submit alternate proposals? Can I apply somewhere for a refund? As far as I can see, the only outcome is that you can keep being angry with God.

    But, being a practical sort of person, I wonder how this helps anything? Remaining angry with God (or anyone) only wears out your stomach lining and raises your blood pressure. This will make you less happy in this life, and likely send you even sooner to the Summerland which is just another room in the house of an Idiot. God is (presumably) unaffected. Odds are the universe will keep working the way it works, whether it's stupid or not.

    So, now what?
     
  9. BruceAdama

    BruceAdama Member

    Again, thank you all for your posts... I'm glad that people are responding. vic, you make an interesting point about a game of make-believe. However, a game of make-believe by nature is devoid of any chance for any real tangible harm to come to whoever is playing it, because it is after all, make-believe... so there is never any element of genuine risk. See, this is why I make the argument that we need not even come here to begin with. Assuming for the sake of this argument that God is all-powerful and all-knowing, and that as his children, all that knowledge is available to us (in Heaven), would it not make sense to simply access the desired information and learn what we would from Heaven itself? It is just like the game of make-believe... we have the same set of variables to deal with, but the aspect of risk or harm is omitted. And as I have said elsewhere in this forum, I think that God should grant lives on an individual basis, if he is to do it at all, because personally, I do NOT want to experience not-Heaven... I do NOT want to learn any lesson, or experience any hardship. I'd rather just stay in Heaven and have everything I need, without any risk or danger. Is that selfish or immature, perhaps it is. But it is also honest. If YOU want to come here and experience what it is like to lose everything you've ever worked for, or be homeless, or have a disease, then by all means, please be my guest. But don't make me do the same thing, merely to satisfy your curiosity (not you individually, the curiosity of all the souls in Heaven collectively). But leave me out of it, please.

    Celera, you are absolutely right... my argument IS that the universe is badly designed, because it is. I am sorry, but there ARE flaws to how things are, and I am merely trying to explore and explain them. Yours is the absolute BEST analogy I have ever heard, for someone describing my position... I see the universe (or life, in more basic terms) as a company that is being steered in the wrong direction by a CEO that has lost his way, and has lost the capacity to make logical decisions. But what I said to vic above ties in to what I'm about to say to you now, so let me explain more...

    The points I make in my arguments are not based purely on seething hate or a desire to curse God... they are based on things I have actually read in REAL NDE accounts. For instance, above, I said that if someone else wants to come to Earth to experience life, let them do it, I don't want to. Well, I have read at least a few separate NDE accounts where the person experiencing the NDE spoke of being shown a vast library, where all the various books of life were kept, and that upon opening any book, the soul "reading" the book would instantly be able to attain the knowledge, experiences, and feelings of the life (or lives) within that book, and it would be as vivid and as real as if that soul had experienced that life for itself. THIS is why I think that both the veil and continued life on this plane is stupid, because if this account is true, then all the knowledge we learn here is stored forever in Heaven, and is freely accessible to all or any souls who wish it. Thus, there is no reason for us to come back and keep experiencing the same thing over and over and over again. Further, there is also no reason for ALL or most souls to live an Earthly life to gain this knowledge, since again, once learned here, all that knowledge is available to all up there. It's like a letter you type up... first, you type that letter for yourself. But once you hit "send" in your email, that letter is available to anyone in the world, who has access to email, or the ability to extract the letter... so there is no need for anyone to manually duplicate the letter themselves.

    Practically, none of this actually helps anything, other than trying to satisfy my need for an explanation. I want to smash God's veil, and see what I cannot see. Personally, I will do nothing in this life to prolong it... I welcome as quick a departure from it as possible, because once I leave, I am NEVER coming back... I'd rather have God simply destroy my entire soul than ever return after this, because I'm not doing this again. He forced me here once... he won't be doing it again.
     
  10. Intbel

    Intbel New Member

    If you read everything ever written, looked at every photograph and watched every film regarding, say, motor cycling, you still wouldn't know what it is like to ride a motorcycle, and that goes for mostly all other activities. It is not enough to know theory, some things have to be experienced to be fully understood and many things can only be experienced in specific environments.

    You'd have no idea whatsover what Love is, either.

    You would know everything but understand very little of what you know.

    I think your frustration at this lack of understanding would cause you to want to be here to find out and you would agree to be here.

    But then, it seems you already did ...


     
  11. BruceAdama

    BruceAdama Member

    ^

    Well, in regards to love, you are wrong, because if we assume that we're living in Heaven, with God, then God and Heaven ARE love, so it (love) would actually be what we know best of all. And as I indicated, according to the NDE accounts I read, whoever was reading the experience from the book of a given life, to them it would seem as if they were actually living it, in every way. So you have the experience, right there.

    As for me personally, as I have stated so often before, I have NO desire whatsoever to learn any kind of lesson that can be learned here, nor do I plan to indulge the curiosity of any souls up there, by learning for them. Let them do it. The sooner my time here ends, the better.
     
  12. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Have you heard the saying that a man's worth is determined by how he reacts under pressure, not when everything is going well? Well, that's actually true from an afterlife perspective. In the Summerland, everything is perfect and blissful. So really, how challenging is it to be nice there, when you have everything you could ever desire and everyone is unbelievably kind and humble? You can read about/watch suffering on earth, but it's not the same. You have to come here and experience it in order to learn how to deal with it and, eventually, how to grow past it.

    Allow me to use an analogy: Let's say you're learning to drive a car for the first time. You have to learn because it will open up endless possibilities and freedoms for you. You can watch all the videos and read all the manuals you want, but that still won't help you to react under pressure (e.g. if a child runs into the road, or another cars is going to hit you). You have to actually take the wheel and learn, through experience. So is it with the spiritual growth. Reading about it or watching it will only get you so far, you have to experience suffering to grow from it.

    Believe it or not, you do want to learn and grow. Otherwise you simply wouldn't be here. No one forced your hand to get you get here. This life and the circumstances within it were your own choice, without outside coercion. So, if you are suffering, then there is something you that you are meant to learn from it. You wouldn't subject yourself to it otherwise.
     
  13. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    This is what I think we as humans cannot fully grasp during earthly life. You are absolutely correct that spiritual beings have the ability to simulate the process of suffering and imperfection for their own spiritual growth. They can do this to help them learn, for better or for worse, with no permanent side-effects or damage. It's no more real, to them, than a video game - although it can have a serious impact on them. That, my friend, is call life. What happens here is important, no doubt, but no more permanent than what happens in a computer simulation, because that's all this is.
     
  14. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    I'm sorry - I somehow missed your last post to me when I wrote the above replies.

    You are right: spiritual growth, in theory, should not be needed. The twist though is that, in all likelihood, spiritual growth is not needed. Perhaps no one can know with absolute certainty what happened to spur the creation of this reality and our mission of growth, but the best assertions come from A Course in Miracles. It is suggested that part of God decided, mistakenly, to split from Itself, just to see what would happen. (That will seem odd, I realize, but understand that we really cannot begin to grasp how something like God might operate.) God, as a whole, realized that this was a bad idea and stopped the separation as soon as it occurred.

    So, for all intents and purposes, the separation never did occur. However, in that instant when part of God was separated, time (and probably space) were created. And so, in order to rejoin God, we have to become spiritually perfect again, from our own perspective. Really, we are perfect and part of God right now, and everyone will eventually get to that point here as well. It's just a matter of time!

    In my own opinion, that is why earthly life is necessary.
     
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  15. BruceAdama

    BruceAdama Member

    Andrew, great posts, and actually, your last reply makes quite a bit of sense to me... I can actually totally accept and understand the idea of part of God splitting apart due to simple and basic curiosity, so I can actually understand that argument, and it does make sense. No argument from me on that.

    MY problem is that "all-inclusiveness" of physical life. I can actually accept without argument all of your explanations about how a particular given soul might want to live a life here. But why should I, if I have no desire to? Please allow me to put it to you this way:

    Let us say you are a soul in Heaven, and are reading through a book of life. Let us say that you "read" the story of another soul's incarnation that perished horribly in a fire. You KNOW from experiencing that soul's incarnation, that the fire was painful, horrible, and a brutal way to die. You KNOW that. Knowing that, would you REALLY want to still experience that firsthand? I for one, would not. You are certainly free to, but all or most souls should not have to go through a life experience, just because a few have something they want to learn.

    It is BECAUSE the Summerland is not challenging and blissful that I would want to forever remain there... I have NO desire whatsoever to learn anything here that I cannot learn up there, because up there, I can do it in safety, and at my own pace, I might add. Which again, leads me to another point which is often reinforced right here on this very forum... that supposedly in Heaven, there is no time, yet somehow, we learn lessons faster here on Earth...

    WHAT???

    Okay... so we learn faster in a place with time than with a place WITHOUT time... uh-huh...

    Think about how silly this sounds. If time is not an issue, why would time be an issue, lol? If we quite literally have all the time in the universe to learn, we can learn not only what we could learn here, but do so at our OWN pace. What does it matter to God if we learn fast, if there is no time at all where we come from? By the way, there IS time in the afterlife, no matter what anyone says... nobody ever thinks of time as what it truly is... time is not a measurement... INCREMENTS of time are measurements... hours, days, years... that is not time. Put simply, time is existence... time is the scientific word for God, because time is, always was, and always will be. You are born, you live, and you die. That is time. So it is in the afterlife, as well... you are born to the physical plane, live, die, are brought back to Heaven, and live in Heaven until your next incarnation. THAT is time, because that is a sequence of events. There is time. Everywhere. Even God is not outside of time... God existed in 1591, and God exists in 2013... during all that time, God existed. That is time. God existed before the universe, and will exist after the universe. That is time. There will always be time, no matter where you are.
     
  16. vic smyth

    vic smyth New Member

    Bruce, the bottom line, at least according to my worldview, is that we all made a freewill, well-intentioned choice to sacrifice our heavenly existence for the greater good, so that maybe our spiritual companions back Home would not have too. They will not have to experience this often crappy world first hand, because we did. They can read the book in the great hall of records that we are currently writing. Granted, like you, it's a choice I don't think I'd make again (next time around one of them can incarnate and I'll sit back and act as guardian angel). But we're here, we might as well make the best of it for ourselves, and others. Besides, aren't you the least bit curious how this silly game of make believe all turns out in the end?

    With Lovingkindness (metta),
    vic's myth
     
  17. vic smyth

    vic smyth New Member

    God, by definition as omniscient, cannot make a mistake. Only an imperfect being can make a mistake. If God decided to split from Itself, it must have been for a Good Reason. I love ACIM, especially the Workbook, but I take issue with some of its concepts like "the ego created the world as an attack on God".

    Taking this a step further; if God cannot make a mistake, God cannot create imperfect beings that need to learn how to love and forgive. We are here as imperfect beings in an imperfect world for a Good Reason. That reason may not seem very obvious which is what makes our existence here such a puzzling challenge. Maybe it's as simple as experiencing imperfection first hand. But we are not here, at least according to my worldview, because God or we made a mistake (even though it often seems that way).

    What really fascinates me as someone who has spent an enormous amount of time studying the gospels, is what Jesus said as to why we are here in the first place -- absolutely nothing -- the question is never really asked. It's taken for granted that we are here, the entire focus is what we should do while we're here to be reach a good afterlife. The answer, of course, boils down to "Love your neighbor as yourself". "Judge not and you shall not be judged, condemn not and you shall not be condemn, forgive and you shall be forgiven, the measure you mete is the measure you'll get."

    So why we are here is a mystery, but what we're to do while we're here is quite clear.

    With Lovingkindness (metta),
    vic's myth
     
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  18. BruceAdama

    BruceAdama Member

    I am not at all curious, because as I have emphasized before, I have no vested interest in the game, its rules, or playing it. I know you truly believe that we all willingly wanted to come here, but I assure you 200% that with ME personally, I never wanted to... I should be the person reading the book, not doing the work, because I have no intention or desire to do it. If someone else wants to, let them, by all means. I feel cheated and wronged that I have been forced here, to do this for the amusement of others, while they sit back and do nothing. If it were at all possible, I'd ask God to just erase this life, and keep me up there as if nothing ever happened... let someone else go through this crap... not me. I don't take well to being wronged or cheated. When it happens, I want either justice or revenge.

    Exactly... this proves that God IS imperfect, and has made mistakes, for he has created an imperfect plan, using an imperfect world, which is being quite imperfectly executed. You're right... things are a mystery. But I want to unravel it so that I may know the truth. Again, I know all my responses may totally make it seem like I'm rebuffing any explanation or counter to my arguments, but that's only because nothing I hear directly confronts the flaws I point out directly head-on, and explains or justifies them. I understand the reasons an individual soul MIGHT have for wanting to come here and live. But I still don't understand why that same fate should await most or all souls, even those who genuinely do not wish it, such as myself. Same with the argument against the veil... nobody has yet given me a solid and concrete reason why it would not do more good than harm, to dismantle the veil, especially when you take into account the library with the collected books of life I mentioned. This is why I sound so stubborn... because I'm confronting what I see to be flaws head-on, and trying to force answers from them.
     
  19. BruceAdama

    BruceAdama Member

    Let me add that it's not just the "spiritual Earth school" that I have no interest in learning lessons from... it's just the way I am... I was the same when my parents forced me to go to college for a few years, until I finally told them F this... I'm just gonna get a job and work. So I dropped out. I didn't want to go to college, I had no desire to go to college, and I was vehemently against going to college, so I dropped out, and during my time there didn't really do anything.

    I felt that when high school was over and done with, that's it. I have fulfilled my legal obligation for school, and now I can do WTF I want. I don't have any desire to sit in a room and be lectured to, assigned work, constrained by a deadline, and then have my intelligence judged by a letter on a piece of paper. I was done with that garbage when I graduated high school. If there is something I want to learn, I will learn it on my own, and by my own free will. I won't be forced into anything.
     
  20. Intbel

    Intbel New Member

    My current understanding.

    (Subject to change, this is not presented as truth
    though it may well contain some grains of truth or signposts to some truth)


    By remaining in the realm of Love we cannot fully comprehend what is Love.
    To do this, we have to experience what is not Love.

    Love is God. God is Love. Love's objective is to express, share and experience it's self by which means it can know it's self.

    Being infinite 'tis shared and expressed in an infinite number of ways in an infinite number of forms.


    To fully know it's self it must fully know what it is not - also in an infinite number of ways in an infinite number of forms and these are created, human or otherwise and we mistakenly refer to them as 'godless' beings.


    Love (or 'god' if you insist) is like a hologram. Every minute expression of it is a minute replica of the whole.
    Every minute expresion has all the attributes of the whole, albeit in minute degrees of quantity and effectiveness.

    Truly, then, it can be said "God is in all things".

    Still with me?

    Okay. To answer the question "why are we here?" there is the obvious answer "To help each other", that is a given.

    In addition, Love (or God, if you still insist) must forget it's self in order to realise it's self.
    Being minute replicas of Love, individuated expressions of Love, we also must forget our selves to be able to realise our selves.
    Thus the vast majority of folks have a hard time believing they are in essence, Love, for they have been taught that Love is an emotion, or is an illusionary product of brain chemistry. This could not be accomplished in the realm(s) of Love. So to experience what we need to experience, we are here. Not that earth is Loveless. Earth herself is of Love. 'Tis that having forgotten what we really are, we have to rediscover ourselves and in the process, the Love which we are re-awakens (or should do so) and we do begin to realise our selves.

    If you really insist on using the term "God" then the same applies. We have been taught that God is something separate from us, some are taught that to "connect with God" we are needing an intermediary and worse - that we need an intermediary who will not only enable us to connect with God but will take our burdens, be punished for what we have done so that we will be pleasing to God and so be permitted to enter into God's personal domain. We are also taught that this only works if we believe it. And if we don't believe it (how could any rational mind do so?) vile unpleasantness is all we will have in our future. In the process of applying this nonsenses in our daily lives it soon becomes clear they do not serve us well and make no sense. So we make a serious effort to discover the truth of the matter. Those who persevere come to some truth and discover that Love, er, God ... underpins all things, is within all things and really is, all there really is.

    I think that covers about everything, unless I've missed something?

    Oh ... one point. One may read a detailed, graphic account of what it is like to be burned to death in a fire.
    But one would not really have a full understanding unless one experienced it.


    Today, we have detailed graphic accounts of massacres and other horric atrocities.
    How can we possibly have an accurate perception of them? We have never experienced them.
    If we did have a full understanding of them, we'd not read about them in some so-called newspaper, mutter "tut tut" and then turn to the next piece of sensationalised nonsense which passes for journalism these days - we'd be totally outraged!

    Equally, unless you have had experiences of one or more sexual relationships, what can you possibly know of it them, really, just from erotic literature and films?

    Reading accounts of others we may well believe, believe most strongly, but the real knowing and understanding of that knowing comes via personal experience.
    To fully know, understand and appreciate anything we have to experience what it is not.

    (On earth we are experiencing what we are not - this is the reason for us being here)

    That reminds me of a pet peeve - marriage guidance counsellors who have never been married; bereavement counsellors who have never experienced a bereavement; drug-addiction counsellors who have never experienced withdrawal symptoms; those who dare to counsel survivors of suicide with out ever experienced the pitch black of hopelessness and rape counsellors who have never been raped - how dare they have the temerity to assume they have a clue as to what their clients have experienced?! Grrr.

    ~ ♥ ~

     

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