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assisted to die

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by mac, Aug 5, 2017.

?

Should there be legalised medical assistance?

  1. no

    14.3%
  2. yes with safeguards

    85.7%
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  1. mac

    mac old member Staff Member

    If you had the opportunity to vote whether your state, province, region or country should allow medical assistance to die, how would you vote?

    This poll is also open to non-members of ALF - please use your vote.
     
  2. mac

    mac old member Staff Member

    Assuming legalities were acceptable and safeguards were in place would you be comfortable with medical assistance being provided to help someone wishing to end their life?
     
  3. jimrich

    jimrich Active Member

    I would and I did.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  4. mac

    mac old member Staff Member

    We can't 'force' someone to remain alive. If their time is up no human can extend it. But doctors can do, and do do, everything in their power to help someone stay alive - that follows from the Hypocratic Oath they generally take.

    Laws also help those unable to help themselves let's not forget - it's not just about "pleasing" the law. This poll is not about machine assisted living or Advance Directives and an Advance Directive can't mandate someone else to end a person's life. This thread is about the situation where a medically qualified person would take prescribed steps deliberately to bring to an end the life of another - effectively to actively end the life of that individual.

    Some US states allow it already, Canada passed a limited law last year and Dignitas in Switzerland has been operating for some time. I expect there are other places. Should the rest of us enjoy a similar situation?
     
  5. jimrich

    jimrich Active Member

    I don't know who or what this "we" is but the ICU doctors "intubated" Irene to FORCE her to stay alive when they could not do any more procedures on her. I showed them her Advance Directive to let them know that she did not want to be kept alive with machines and then I enforced her wishes by having the staff "let" her die!
    That is what the ICU doctors were doing until I requested that they honor Irene's written wishes and disconnect the unwanted life support machinery. Irene's family backed me up so the staff kindly followed Irene's Directive. (They knew she was beyond saving anyway!)
    Well our Advance Directives require that we are NOT kept alive with machines so that is a kind of "mandate" to end our lives, depending on how you read it.
    And that is exactly what the ICU staff did - in a very smooth and humane way, with Irene's entire family standing by her bed side, the ICU nurses took all the PRESCRIBED STEPS to deliberately, actively and effectively END Irene's life! I signed a few forms to authorize the process and the staff professionally followed through. A lot of tears fell in the ICU that night!
    I will be enjoying it when the time comes and Irene is extremely happy that the medical staff helped her leave the way that they did. She loves it over there and would not have wanted to stay here in all of those horrible and painful conditions.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  6. mac

    mac old member Staff Member

    It's become all about you as usual, not about general principles that apply to anyone. just jimrich and his story.... :rolleyes:

    Others will vote according to their wishes and speak, or not speak, as they choose. Let's leave it to someone else to speak, eh, jimrich ?
     
  7. RobertaGrimes

    RobertaGrimes Administrator

    I can't find myself accepting the notion of physician-assisted (or not-physician-assisted) suicide. But goodness, isn't there a possible middle way? Can't we make it standard to allow people who are old or terminally ill to die naturally, and preferably at home or in home-like hospice conditions?
     
  8. jimrich

    jimrich Active Member

    I can only speak from and about my own personal experience here.
    I don't know if a hospice or home death would have been any better for Irene than the comfort, expertise and equipment that was available at the hospital ICU but I guess I could have just left Irene here in our apartment to die a perfectly horrifying and painfully SLOW yet natural death rather than have the professionals help her commit suicide. Of course it was not suicide at all! Irene did not want to be kept artificially alive with machines once she was in a comma so if you want to call that committing suicide, so be it. I think of SUICIDE as either a very hasty, foolish act or a very wise and timely act, depending on the circumstances.
    I can think of several but hesitate to mention them in this already HEATED thread.
    I don't know who or what this "we" is but if you are asking me, of course I want to make it possible for ANYONE to die (or commit suicide) any way they wish. It's your life! In a technical sense, Irene did die "naturally" but was made more comfortable by the ICU staff when her organs failed. Our brother in law, Jimmy, was sent home to die "naturally" of the inoperable cancer that painfully ended his life. I guess nobody had the guts to "help" him die comfortably so he just layed there at home and slowly died a horrible, cancerous death!
    Re: "...die....at home or in home-like hospice conditions", please say some more about your concepts for such an ideal death.

    I'd love to hear from anyone who has personally watched a loved one or pet slowly and "naturally" die at home, in a hospice or at a hospital (with professional help). Our Advance Directive do not mention "suicide". They only mention NO life support equipment and as little pain as possible.
     
  9. jimrich

    jimrich Active Member

    Roberta, what are your plans or expectations for the end of your life or that of someone close to you? Have you made up an Advance Directive? Would you want to be assisted to cross over or have someone that you love be assisted to cross over? Perhaps "assisted transition" is a better term here. I hope you do not see this as prying into your business or raising the topic of suicide. I am interested to see how anyone, with actual experience, handles or will handle DEATH. But then, most of us at this forum, already know that there is no actual DEATH. - just a natural "transition". Respectfully yours, jim
     
  10. mac

    mac old member Staff Member

    This poll is not about machine assisted living or Advance Directives and an Advance Directive can't mandate someone else to end a person's life. This thread is about the situation where a medically qualified person would take prescribed steps deliberately to bring to an end the life of another - effectively to actively end the life of that individual.

    Some US states allow it already, Canada passed a limited law last year and Dignitas in Switzerland has been operating for some time. I expect there are other places. Should the rest of us enjoy a similar situation?
     
  11. mac

    mac old member Staff Member

    My original question was only intended to cover physician-assisted death, the administering of materials to deliberately bring to an end the life of a patient. As an example a patient suffering motor neurone disease who wishes to end his/her life before the condition reaches an unacceptable level of paralysis.
     
  12. jimrich

    jimrich Active Member

    I'd vote in favor of medical assistance to die because I have personally enforced such assistance for my late wife AT HER REQUEST! The medical staff did an excellent, humane and acceptable job of allowing her (body) to die with dignity and absolutely NO pain. She LOVED IT!
     
  13. mac

    mac old member Staff Member

    One of the problems, jimrich, is that you seem unable to see issues other than on a personal basis - by referring to your wife. There is a world of people out there and it's for those people I was asking the original question. However you think of suicide the general definition - one I'd guess most folk would understand - is the ending your own life deliberately. But suicide isn't what I had asked about.....

    You speak about this thread being HEATED but pointing out something misunderstood isn't getting heated and anyway there's no need to SHOUT that word. Netiquette considers capital letters to be shouting.

    Don't be disingenuous. Used the way it was it's an inclusive term that talks about how it is for folk generally. Used that way it invites anyone to respond and it's a question not addressed solely towards a particular individual.


    Roberta was making a general point but as always you personalise a situation.



    Great idea! Why not start a thread to listen to their experiences, not just talk about yours?

    I don't think I need to say any more about personalising the general situation.

    nonsense! :rolleyes:

    I repeat: "This poll is not about machine assisted living or Advance Directives and an Advance Directive can't mandate someone else to end a person's life."

    Let me try again...: "This thread is about the situation where a medically qualified person would take prescribed steps deliberately to bring to an end the life of another - effectively to actively end the life of that individual.

    Some US states allow it already, Canada passed a limited law last year and Dignitas in Switzerland has been operating for some time. I expect there are other places. Should the rest of us enjoy a similar situation?"
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  14. mac

    mac old member Staff Member

    However Roberta feels about the question, I consider it an impertinent question to ask anyone.


    However Roberta sees it I do see it as unwarranted personal prying and it would be in anyone else's case. It most definitely does raise the topic of suicide! That's not what this thread was intended to be about!

    How anyone handles, or will handle, DEATH (shouting again?) is something personal to the individual. Should a member wish to share their experiences or thoughts here on ALF then there are ways to do that, for example by starting a thread for that purpose or by posting in one already covering those issues.

    The issue of what constitutes DEATH is something discussed here before and again it's something not relevant to the poll thread's subject.
     
  15. mac

    mac old member Staff Member

    See? Easy if you try....

    Please don't keep SHOUTING though, would you? It simply isn't necessary or desirable. Emphasis using italicised text or just underlining is much less 'in-your-face', I'm sure you'd agree.
     
  16. jimrich

    jimrich Active Member

    I would not dare speak for the rest of YOU, but yes, everyone and everything should "enjoy" a similar situation, in my opinion. How about you, mac? Should YOU enjoy a similar situation?
     
  17. jimrich

    jimrich Active Member

    Please just ignore me.
     
  18. mac

    mac old member Staff Member

    SHOUTING AGAIN jimrich and flaming too? Can you not write like normal people using the customary mix of upper and lower case letters? Are you ex-military, ex-teacher, or just a blustering bully who has to shout to make a point?

    shidad :rolleyes:
     
  19. jimrich

    jimrich Active Member

    Mac, although you (and maybe many others) see your self as the "top dog" and "master of ALF", I am pretty sure that Roberta (and maybe even some others who are hiding in the wings now!) is capable of posting her own responses to anyone's questions - pertinent or not. If my questions offend you so much, just put me on your "ignore list".
    Problem solved!

    LOL, who cares how you see anything? A smart person would simply IGNORE it.
    I am hoping that Roberta will state her view on the issue of "unwarranted personal prying" and suicide, since she brought it up.

    You probably missed it but Roberta raised the topic of suicide here......
    ...so, you need to take up your issues about suicide with Roberta!
     
  20. mac

    mac old member Staff Member

    Please just stop SHOUTING. There really is no justification for it.

    I don't intend to ignore you when you behave so boorishly or when I wish to respond in the thread I started. And I recall you said some time ago you'd be ignoring me.
     
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