God's got some splainin' to do?!?!?!

[BruceAdama]

WWE Lover -- great thread. Brings back a little bit of pain for me since my wounds are still pretty raw, but it's good to discuss these things.

I think that everyone that goes through any type of sorrow or hardship naturally will feel an anger toward "God." Because we expect God to be the one who makes it all better, or is at least the "one" who deals us our hand (Note: I'm no religious zealot. I use "God" as a term to mean spirit, mind, whatever.). I know that when things went downhill so rapidly in my life last year -- and as most of you know, that was grief tripled (the death of my father-in-law in May, then my miscarriage in mid-June, then the death of my own wonderful mom in late June) -- I felt extremely angry and betrayed, and said a lot of the same things (directly TO God, mind you) as Bruce is saying -- Really, God? What ELSE? What else are you going to throw at us? Because I know it's going to be unfair and I want nothing to do with it. And why do some mean people get to live forever and have seemingly amazing lives while you are taking everything that I need and love? Etc. etc. (See? there is apparently some residual bitterness there!). I vented on everyone I was close to -- even my husband, who had just lost his father. Venting is important, it releases pressure. And this forum is filled with kind and loving people who not only listen, but want to help. It may seem like we are "missing the point," but I don't think we are. We just all come to the "point" from different places and experiences.

Anyway, what changed things for me, personally (and note, I didn't say what turned it around completely): One painful, slogging day at a time. One very dear friend who said to me, "I know this energy healer..." And one sermon by my pastor, given the first Sunday I decided I could stomach going to church again since my mom got sick. What he said basically amounted to -- we all recognize God in the happiest of times. What we don't always recognize is that God is not just present in the tough times, but is helping us survive during those times -- it's just harder to see that when the thing that is staring you right in the face is your own pain. For me, God was the one getting me out of bed when everything else is screaming at me "What's the point?" God was my precious 2 year old, putting her hand on my face (that was CONSTANTLY covered in tears) saying, "It will be OK, mommy." God is the force that keeps you job searching, Bruce, when every other force has tried to beat down your willpower. God is your parents being there to support you during the most difficult time of your life. God is the voice in your head, helping you remember what you want more than anything -- love and marriage. We may not recognize God there, but there God is. You WANT things, you BELIEVE that life can be good and amazing and loving. That fact alone is such a blessing. It may not seem like it, and I certainly am neither trying to diminish your anger (because I very much can empathize) nor assert that my own awakening will be yours.

Bruce, I experienced my difficulties in life around the same time as you -- I'm 36. Old enough to have seen my "carefree days" pass me by, and young enough to look down a still very long road. For me, that road looks vastly different than it did 5 years ago. The road I'm on today is "better" than the one that I was on 12 months ago. I'm finally able to come to terms with the fact that "better" can no longer be that my mom isn't sick, like it was 2 years ago. "Better" CAN'T be that my mom is still alive. "Better," for me, is a new reality that I have to constantly construct every day. I truly, truly hope that things get better for you -- even if "better" is a moving target.

KatLen: Wow... you really did have to deal with a lot of personal pain, and you have my deepest sympathies... I cannot even begin to fathom how I might have reacted in your situation... I think at the least I would have lost my mind, but IDK... I only know that I am just dreading the day I have to see my parents leave this world, and I try not to think about it. I applaud you for having the strength you had to somehow make it through all that. I don't know if I could be as strong, if it were me. Anyway, a lot of what you wrote I will definitely try to take to heart, but I would like to clarify one of my points, since maybe I just wasn't articulating it clearly enough...

My whole point or argument wasn't so much about the hardships we face, as it was kind of formed as a question about why we even need to learn these lessons to begin with, since in heaven, there is no hardship or pain or suffering. My whole argument was to ask why there is a need to learn a lesson that quite simply won't even apply where we're going, and where we came from? To me, that left me with the simple answer that it was simply God's choice, since he is all-powerful. So I was just asking the basic questions of "why", and "what's the use", not so much in the context of questioning why I myself have to endure these trials, but why God itself would even create them in the first place, since I just can't see how it's relevant to our existence in the afterlife (or prelife).

Admittedly, I'm the one who kind of drove the thread in the whole direction of attacking God, and venting my feelings of anger and bitterness... I know those feelings showed, and came through loud and clear, and again, I apologize for that, because in a way, it was like derailing the thread, which is why I'll try my best not to do it anymore. Put simply, my attempt to answer a question evolved into a tirade against God. A lot of what you said has resonated with me, though, and like I said, I will try to take some of it to heart.

[EndlessEight]

Bruce,

I think you're missing the fundamental notion that no matter the pain, agony, disappointment, anguish, sadness you experience here on Earth -- in the end, all is good.

Using your parent logic, you may find yourself allowing your child to get into a harmless situation in which you know they will fail, to convey a message. But you know, in the end, you are there and all will be good.

It's the same notion I suspect with the governing bodies.

A friend's sister was murdered, raped, and discarded in a dumpster in NYC. It seems like a senseless message. The person murdered presumably endured a few moments of agony hopefully followed by immediate bliss when they crossed over.

Those remaining on Earth are left with the pieces to pick up. However, ultimately one day, they will meet again. And since the afterlife has no contraints of time, the separation will seem like a bat of an eye and the pain is forgotten.

[ilovelearninhg]

Bruce,

I think you're missing the fundamental notion that no matter the pain, agony, disappointment, anguish, sadness you experience here on Earth -- in the end, all is good.

Using your parent logic, you may find yourself allowing your child to get into a harmless situation in which you know they will fail, to convey a message. But you know, in the end, you are there and all will be good.

It's the same notion I suspect with the governing bodies.

A friend's sister was murdered, raped, and discarded in a dumpster in NYC. It seems like a senseless message. The person murdered presumably endured a few moments of agony hopefully followed by immediate bliss when they crossed over.

Those remaining on Earth are left with the pieces to pick up. However, ultimately one day, they will meet again. And since the afterlife has no contraints of time, the separation will seem like a bat of an eye and the pain is forgotten.

That is so horrible. My sister's stepdaughter was fatally shot in the back by her estranged husband this past year. Every time I see my sister's husband I know he must be in a lot of pain from this but I know my sister has helped him a lot with her strong spiritual beliefs. Still I cannot imagine. But in the end, I agree, it all turns out for the good. It's just we can't see the whole picture now.

[KatLen]

Thanks for your words, Bruce. No one knows for sure how they will handle any given situation -- especially a hard one, until they have to. I think I get what you're saying -- why should we even HAVE to at all? -- and I wish I had a good answer. The only answer I can think of is that to really say you/your eternal spirit can be the advanced being you want to be (e.g. strong, resilient, open-minded, loving, etc.), you have to experience situations in which you prove those traits to yourself. Otherwise, they are just adjectives. And since -- as you note -- where we come from is only love and peace, there is no sadness, there is no depression, there is no situation in which we CAN experience the things we need to experience in order to learn/grow.

You may not need those lessons to be "successful" in the place we ultimately end up, but if you ever choose to live another human life, you very well may. From the vantage point of where you are now, I can imagine you probably don't assume you'll ever want to come back, but who knows, right?

To oversimplify in a real life situation: I do professional learning and development for my company. Every week, we do a new hire training in which we explain to them -- in detail -- the structure of the organization. Everyone nods enthusiastically. Then, we have them go through an exercise in which they basically have to put what we just told them into practice. Turns out, many people get it wrong -- usually over half the class. Either because they weren't paying attention, or because they were confused, or because can't read their notes, or because they can't remember (or remember it wrong), whatever. We go over the answers together, then we have them do the exercise AGAIN, but in a slightly different scenario. This time, everyone gets it. Hooray! Silly example, I know, and not one that can equate to real difficulty.

Once, I went on one of those Tower of Doom rides -- you know, the ones that bring you straight up, hang you there for a good 10 seconds, then drop you straight back down at stupid speeds, fearing for your life. Here is a fact: I'm never, ever going to get on one of those again. Why? Because it scared the daylights out of me. How do I know that? Because I did it.

Here is another fact: I know that I am strong enough to overcome the pain of grief. Why? Because I did it. My spirit will remember that for when it needs it again in my next lives.

[BruceAdama]

Bruce,

I think you're missing the fundamental notion that no matter the pain, agony, disappointment, anguish, sadness you experience here on Earth -- in the end, all is good.

And yet again, we come back to my base point with that assumption, which is, if it's all good anyway, what's the use, if it doesn't even matter?

[BruceAdama]

Thanks for your words, Bruce. No one knows for sure how they will handle any given situation -- especially a hard one, until they have to. I think I get what you're saying -- why should we even HAVE to at all? -- and I wish I had a good answer. The only answer I can think of is that to really say you/your eternal spirit can be the advanced being you want to be (e.g. strong, resilient, open-minded, loving, etc.), you have to experience situations in which you prove those traits to yourself. Otherwise, they are just adjectives. And since -- as you note -- where we come from is only love and peace, there is no sadness, there is no depression, there is no situation in which we CAN experience the things we need to experience in order to learn/grow.

You may not need those lessons to be "successful" in the place we ultimately end up, but if you ever choose to live another human life, you very well may. From the vantage point of where you are now, I can imagine you probably don't assume you'll ever want to come back, but who knows, right?

To oversimplify in a real life situation: I do professional learning and development for my company. Every week, we do a new hire training in which we explain to them -- in detail -- the structure of the organization. Everyone nods enthusiastically. Then, we have them go through an exercise in which they basically have to put what we just told them into practice. Turns out, many people get it wrong -- usually over half the class. Either because they weren't paying attention, or because they were confused, or because can't read their notes, or because they can't remember (or remember it wrong), whatever. We go over the answers together, then we have them do the exercise AGAIN, but in a slightly different scenario. This time, everyone gets it. Hooray! Silly example, I know, and not one that can equate to real difficulty.

Once, I went on one of those Tower of Doom rides -- you know, the ones that bring you straight up, hang you there for a good 10 seconds, then drop you straight back down at stupid speeds, fearing for your life. Here is a fact: I'm never, ever going to get on one of those again. Why? Because it scared the daylights out of me. How do I know that? Because I did it.

Here is another fact: I know that I am strong enough to overcome the pain of grief. Why? Because I did it. My spirit will remember that for when it needs it again in my next lives.

KatLen: You're absolutely right, that we don't know how we'll react until faced with a situation, and you're absolutely right that you know you're stronger now for having gone through it. You actually DO see my point as I was meaning it, in the correct context, so I won't further dwell on that aspect. All I can say is that for me personally, it's not something I wanted to do, and I've known this, because I know from a memory I've had all my life that I was forced here, despite a very "vocal" and furious protest... I didn't want this life. And that aspect of it is why when I read NDE accounts where people who want to stay in heaven are forced back here, despite their protests... that is what angers me and makes me think of God as a tyrant, because on one hand, he claims that we are endowed with free will, and we have choice, yet on the other hand, when he offers us a choice, it seems to have no purpose, since he's only going to do what he wants anyway, so why even ask, if you won't heed our wish? Like I said before... I don't take kindly to being bullied.

As for coming back, as I just stated... ASSUMING I have a choice, and it's actually honored, no, I would never come back here. The only way I would, is if it's 100% on my terms and conditions, and not God's, which we both know won't ever happen. So yeah, my answer is that I wouldn't want to come back.

[Fasaga]

Hi Bruce

Your point as to your protesting your return to Earth, do you by chance have any recollections of past lives lived or have you considered trying to find out. I've not heard of anyone being forced to come back before, and never considered it as an option, but since you mentioned it earlier in this thread I've done some hunting and now believe that it is a very real posibility.

I know my eldest daughter has some real anger issues she has bought with her from past lives unecessarily cut short that she needs to deal with in this lifetime to progress, sometimes it feels like she has been forced back too.

Just wondering if you have ever considered exploring for reasons?

[BruceAdama]

^

I believe very strongly that I have two pre-birth (this life) memories... one is I have a memory of my past life ending, and in that memory, I was a little girl who was hit by a car. Now that I'm an adult, I think that is probably why when I was very very young, I would ask God to make me a girl (I know it's stupid, but I was like 4 years old), which I found odd, after thinking about it, when thinking back to my childhood. But the second memory is of me being somewhere (IDK if it was heaven or where, but it wasn't Earth), and being shown and told about the life I was to live now, and I remember arguing very forcefully against it, and protesting in anger that I wouldn't go, no matter what, even to the point of cursing, or whatever would be akin to cursing. Obviously, it was all for naught. I wasn't afraid in that argument at all... it was all anger.

[Fasaga]

I can definitely understand your resentment for being sent back if a previous incarnation ended traumatically, I wish you peace and a happy ending so to speak.

[Wonderer]

I know my eldest daughter has some real anger issues she has bought with her from past lives unnecessarily cut short that she needs to deal with in this lifetime to progress, sometimes it feels like she has been forced back too.

Hi Fasaga,

Do you think that we could be forced to re-incarnate?

Sometimes I feel that I did wrong things/decisions in my previous lives that hurt others so now I am suffering in this life to learn a few lessons....