God's got some splainin' to do?!?!?!

[WWE LOVER]

Every now and then, I talk to people - family or friends or just meeting new people - and the issue of the afterlife and religion comes up.

I am the only person in my area that I know of who shares the beliefs of the people of this forum. It seems that most people I know don't believe in the afterlife, and that once we die, that's it. You're gone for good.

But these people also seem to qualify that belief with an addition to it - that if God exists, He's got a lot of explaining to do, or that He is a sicko (and yes, I am calling God a "He" as these people refer to Him as such).

So why does God owe us this explanation? Because he created this whole damn mess - a wretched world where selfishness and greed is the norm, and where, unfortunately, cats are free to roam the streets with impudence and no shame.

But I never heard any of these people ever mention that we came here to experience imperfection, negativity, etc, and that this place is a creation of Mind.

I'm just wondering if any of you hear the same kind of thing from others about how God must be a psycho and how he owes us an explanation as this is "all His fault." I know I get tired of hearing it sometimes, and try to deliver the message of love and forgiveness, but most of the time it falls on deaf ears.

[BruceAdama]

Every now and then, I talk to people - family or friends or just meeting new people - and the issue of the afterlife and religion comes up.

I am the only person in my area that I know of who shares the beliefs of the people of this forum. It seems that most people I know don't believe in the afterlife, and that once we die, that's it. You're gone for good.

But these people also seem to qualify that belief with an addition to it - that if God exists, He's got a lot of explaining to do, or that He is a sicko (and yes, I am calling God a "He" as these people refer to Him as such).

So why does God owe us this explanation? Because he created this whole damn mess - a wretched world where selfishness and greed is the norm, and where, unfortunately, cats are free to roam the streets with impudence and no shame.

But I never heard any of these people ever mention that we came here to experience imperfection, negativity, etc, and that this place is a creation of Mind.

I'm just wondering if any of you hear the same kind of thing from others about how God must be a psycho and how he owes us an explanation as this is "all His fault." I know I get tired of hearing it sometimes, and try to deliver the message of love and forgiveness, but most of the time it falls on deaf ears.

First off, let me thank you for directly answering my question in the other thread... I will post a few more very soon. Now to this... I was going to wait until tomorrow to post my reply here, but decided I couldn't wait, because this really struck a chord with me. This is pretty much at the core of why I'm feeling how I'm feeling now... because my life is pretty much in ruins right now, and the fact that I'm 35 makes me realize that I don't have much time left for things to get better. So when I hear people say that God put us here to learn, and that WE chose to come here and live as we do... uh-uh... I'm sorry, but there are inherent flaws with this.

We all operate on the premise that God knows all. He knows all that was, is, and ever will be. If that be the case, there's simply no credibility to the logic that we have to come to Earth to learn lessons, or that the physical Earth is the best place for that, because by definition, God knows everything, so all we need to know could and should come directly from God, as we are his creations... of him. To have him resort to sending us to Earth to learn what he could teach us in an instant quite frankly smacks of laziness on his part. I don't buy it.

And then there is the issue of pain. Again, as with above... if the key to everything is love, and that we are all supposed to learn to love one another, then why not simply keep us in heaven, where not only is there only love and joy, but also constant access to all knowledge? To create an Earth with pain and death defies all reason because it is simply not necessary. I didn't choose this life, and I actually know this for a fact, because of a pre-birth memory I have... I was actually quite vehemently against coming back here and living this life, and quite frankly, I DO think God owes me an explanation. He owes me an explanation of why he claims to have graced us with free will, yet we have no say in weather or not we are forced back here by him, which kind of makes him look like a tyrant, IMO. I question his wisdom. I question the wisdom of being so lazy that he would rather send his creation to a world full of pain, because he feels that his creation has some lesson to learn, than take the time himself to teach his creation. I question the wisdom of a God that allows millions of people and even animals to suffer and die, or live in poverty, for no reason whatsoever. As stated above, God himself can teach us what we need to know. Therefore, I find God's "plan" immensely flawed, and quite pointless.

I read one NDE account where someone had killed himself, and the souls he saw in heaven were telling him that he couldn't die, because they needed him here on Earth, and how supposedly those "up there" are watching and learning from us down here. Excuse me? I'm not some rat in a maze, running around performing for the amusement of others. I didn't choose this life, and as it is now, I certainly don't want it, so to be frank, screw what others up there want, or feel they need from me. If they feel they want to learn something, let THEM come down here and live their own life, and do for themselves, instead of watching from their safety above like cowards. I'm not here for anyone's benefit, nor do I like being used.

I don't mean for this message to sound harsh or get me banned, but this is truly how I feel. I admit that I am quite angry at God at this point in my life, but as I said, IMO, life itself is not necessary, so I don't see why any of us should be put here in the first place. So yes, I strongly believe that God owes me an explanation. I can say more, but I think this is enough for tonight. There is no reason for life here on Earth, and if there is, there's no reason for it to be hard or unpleasant, and the fact that it is makes me regard God as a lazy bully. There is no NEED for imperfection. There is no NEED for negativity... all those things were created by God for the Earth, simply because HE felt that we somehow needed to experience it, when in truth, we don't. Imperfection and negativity don't exist in heaven, so why create it here? There is no reason other than the sadism of watching us suffer through it, which as indicated, is pointless.

[Fasaga]

Hi Bruce

Wow, what a response. I havn't yet had the opportunity to read your other posts but will. So I will keep my reply here short, and it is also just my opinion based on what I've personally seen, heard, learned and accepted as my truth I guess.

I don't think the other side is perfect either, I think there is alot of learning that happens there as well and not all on the other side are privy to all knowledge, like here, it is something that is earned and strived for.

The circumstances here on Earth are exactly what we as a civilization have built. We have created the rifts between races, religions, generations and social status and political convictions, based on our own Ego and Greed and Hunger for Power. These are the motivators that have unfortunately found themselves at the apex of the human focus, instead of what was meant to be - yes, love and forgiveness and prosperity and happiness for all. Unfortunately again, for some, enough will never be enough, and prosperity for some is a bowl of rice a day, and for others its 23 cars and 12 Mansions. I don't think that this was any part of Gods design and although orchestration of events here on Earth is a concept I am VERY convinced of, there are limitations because of Humankinds ability to retain its FREE WILL.

I also believe there are no hard and fast rules as to how this all works. I believe some plan their lives before birth, plan a connection with a guide and decide who returns and who doesn't, I've never before heard of anyone being forced to reincarnate but just because I haven't heard it doesn't make it not so, I also believe that Higher Beings incarnate with specific cause and with specific timing and with residual memory, I believe there are many circumstances and posibilities that we haven't even touched on yet, but time is on our side as we all are eternal.

I don't believe we are running the maze, not on our own anyway, I believe the spiritual realms rely as much on the physical as the physical relys on the spiritual, it all works hand in hand and one won't survive without the other.

[Fasaga]

Every now and then, I talk to people - family or friends or just meeting new people - and the issue of the afterlife and religion comes up.

I am the only person in my area that I know of who shares the beliefs of the people of this forum. It seems that most people I know don't believe in the afterlife, and that once we die, that's it. You're gone for good.

But these people also seem to qualify that belief with an addition to it - that if God exists, He's got a lot of explaining to do, or that He is a sicko (and yes, I am calling God a "He" as these people refer to Him as such).

So why does God owe us this explanation? Because he created this whole damn mess - a wretched world where selfishness and greed is the norm, and where, unfortunately, cats are free to roam the streets with impudence and no shame.

But I never heard any of these people ever mention that we came here to experience imperfection, negativity, etc, and that this place is a creation of Mind.

I'm just wondering if any of you hear the same kind of thing from others about how God must be a psycho and how he owes us an explanation as this is "all His fault." I know I get tired of hearing it sometimes, and try to deliver the message of love and forgiveness, but most of the time it falls on deaf ears.

G'day WWE

Good to see you've hit your form. Good post. People who want to blame God for our problems usually also blame everyone else for every other thing as well. When we all start taking responsibility for our own actions, or inactions, we can start making things right. The thought of everything suddenly turning to naught when we die sort of gives us an out from taking any interest in what happens to this place after we're gone doesn't it. Something I vaguely remember someone saying once, We live for as long as we are remembered, so I guess to believe that we just end when we die means that everyone has to instantly forget us.

[BruceAdama]

The circumstances here on Earth are exactly what we as a civilization have built. We have created the rifts between races, religions, generations and social status and political convictions, based on our own Ego and Greed and Hunger for Power.

I wholeheartedly agree with you here, which is why IMO, it just reinforces my belief that God's plan is either flawed, or somehow has gone quite awry. Like I said in my post, God knows everything, therefore HE could have singularly taught us everything we needed to know in HIS realm, without the need for an Earthly life where we muck it all up. But he didn't, which leads me to one of two conclusions... either God is simply lazy, or he has this perverse sadistic need to see us somehow slog through a struggle simply because HE has decided it is the way of things. God created the Earth. He had a choice. He didn't HAVE to tempt Eve with the apple, or assign such dire consequences to it, but he did, and for no reason other than for what he himself wanted. It's not what I wanted. I didn't ask to be created by God... he did that on his own, without consulting me. So the meat of the matter is that quite simply, God didn't HAVE to create this world where humans create greed, war, and suffering. He could have easily kept us up there with him, and taught us himself. But he chose not to. So yes, I await my explanation from him.

Again, I'm not trying to get banned, or anger people with other beliefs, but we are all products of the circumstances of our lives, and so far, my life has led me to have these feelings. I WANT things to get better, which is why I've been reading about all this afterlife stuff, to try and somehow understand a bit better, but for the time being... yeah, I feel the way I do.

[Highlander]

It's easy and often tempting to fall into the trap of blaming God for the difficulties we have as humans. I've done it many times. But, aren't many of our problems and the misery of the world in general, created by us? Humans are primarily driven by two self-induced forces: greed and fear, both negative and powerful drivers. These in turn come from our ego. On the flip side there is much love and forgiveness here also. It's our choice which way to go.

From Rienhold Niebuhr:

God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed,
Courage to change the things which should be changed,
and the Wisdom to distinguish the one from the other.
Living one day at a time, Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace, Taking, as Jesus did,
This sinful world as it is, Not as I would have it,
Trusting that You will make all things right, If I surrender to Your will,
So that I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen.

[Celera]

BruceAdama - I think most of us have at times had this view of things There is so much in life that is unfair. Why did my parents give me up to be adopted, and then a couple of years later they had three more children who they raised to be happy and successful, while I struggled in an adoptive home with a crazy, mean-spirited parent? I worked on that one for years. And as difficult and unfair as that seemed -- there are billions of people on earth right now suffering far, far worse. Some of our suffering is our own fault, some is the fault of others, some is random.

What you have written reminds me of a book called A Grief Observed, by C. S. Lewis. Lewis writes from a traditionally Christian perspective, but most of this particular book is about his grieving process after the death of his wife. Much of his internal argument against what he calls "God the Vivisector" -- a god who tortures us for His entertainment. The book is interesting and moving as an account of a very human journey through grief to acceptance. Much of Lewis's writing is Christian apologetics, but this particular book not so much.

I think that God owes us all an explanation, in a sense. Would we long for explanations so much if we were never meant to have them? But sometimes maybe we don't want an explanation from God so much as we want an apology. That's the bit you have to get past in order to have any peace in this life, I think.

[Fasaga]

I wholeheartedly agree with you here, which is why IMO, it just reinforces my belief that God's plan is either flawed, or somehow has gone quite awry. Like I said in my post, God knows everything, therefore HE could have singularly taught us everything we needed to know in HIS realm, without the need for an Earthly life where we muck it all up. But he didn't, which leads me to one of two conclusions... either God is simply lazy, or he has this perverse sadistic need to see us somehow slog through a struggle simply because HE has decided it is the way of things. God created the Earth. He had a choice. He didn't HAVE to tempt Eve with the apple, or assign such dire consequences to it, but he did, and for no reason other than for what he himself wanted. It's not what I wanted. I didn't ask to be created by God... he did that on his own, without consulting me. So the meat of the matter is that quite simply, God didn't HAVE to create this world where humans create greed, war, and suffering. He could have easily kept us up there with him, and taught us himself. But he chose not to. So yes, I await my explanation from him.

Again, I'm not trying to get banned, or anger people with other beliefs, but we are all products of the circumstances of our lives, and so far, my life has led me to have these feelings. I WANT things to get better, which is why I've been reading about all this afterlife stuff, to try and somehow understand a bit better, but for the time being... yeah, I feel the way I do.

Bruce,
I think God's explanation would go something like this,

"I told you not to eat that damn fruit! But did you listen, NOOOOO!"

What would you say if I suggested that God has his limitations too? That all of creation stemmed from a single thought and then Kaos took over to what we have on our hands today. Evolution isn't a myth either. Alien interjection into our history is also quite posible and for many years I could accept that therein may lye the "missing link". Our existense, past, present and future is still filled with so many mysteries, that stopping the progression of thought by singling out one cause to blame for it all, namely God, will halt any future development. Religions have done this for years and stifled spiritual growth in so many people by setting them a template for life and a formula to get into heaven - it just doesn't work that way.

Can God just step in and fix everyones problems, well, not if we keep sabotaging our own existence.

If you bought a new car, didn't service it, didn't maintain it and just down right abused it, can you blame the manufacturer when it breaks down?

[Fasaga]

BruceAdama - I think most of us have at times had this view of things There is so much in life that is unfair. Why did my parents give me up to be adopted, and then a couple of years later they had three more children who they raised to be happy and successful, while I struggled in an adoptive home with a crazy, mean-spirited parent? I worked on that one for years. And as difficult and unfair as that seemed -- there are billions of people on earth right now suffering far, far worse. Some of our suffering is our own fault, some is the fault of others, some is random.

What you have written reminds me of a book called A Grief Observed, by C. S. Lewis. Lewis writes from a traditionally Christian perspective, but most of this particular book is about his grieving process after the death of his wife. Much of his internal argument against what he calls "God the Vivisector" -- a god who tortures us for His entertainment. The book is interesting and moving as an account of a very human journey through grief to acceptance. Much of Lewis's writing is Christian apologetics, but this particular book not so much.

I think that God owes us all an explanation, in a sense. Would we long for explanations so much if we were never meant to have them? But sometimes maybe we don't want an explanation from God so much as we want an apology. That's the bit you have to get past in order to have any peace in this life, I think.

I don't feel that God owes us anything, and I also don't feel as though I owe God either. I owe it to myself to do what I believe is the right thing and that is where the debt stops. God didn't ask to be worshipped, didn't ask for Idols in his name, didn't ask for Religions to milk the population for all they could in order to secure property and build expensive churches, God didn't want War, or poverty or disease or anything else harmful or destructive.

I don't expect my kids to worship me because I feed them and house them, love them and care for them, hug them, pick them up when they fall, try to make their lives easier and happier than mine. My reward is to see them happy and that is enough for me, why would we put more than that on God.

[BruceAdama]

Fasaga,

You also don't intentionally place your children in dangerous situations, or stand idly by as they suffer, do you? In this regard, God is akin to an abusive parent. You keep missing my point, which is that God never HAD to place us here in the first place to begin with... it was HE who knowingly gave us fruit he knew would cause destructive after-effects with us. It was HE who decided that we have some lesson to learn, and put us here. He never had to do that, and could have just taught us all we needed to know in his own environment, away from all this. But no, the fact that he did, as I said, makes me regard him as an abusive parent. He stands idly by as people starve, die, suffer, etc... and animals too. He has failed as a fit parent, because he knowingly allows his children to come to great harm. Using the parent analogy, when children fight with one another, what do parents do? If they're good parents, they step in, and break it up. Where was God during WWII? Where is he in Syria, where innocent children are dying? He is not doing his job as a parent, and stepping in, to keep his children from fighting.

My whole point deals with the fact that God is all-knowing... he knows all, so he can teach all. We don't need this Earth to learn it in. Look at it this way... you are a man with a Bible, and you read your Bible to learn the word of God. Would you rather read that Bible and learn those lessons in your tent in some raging battlefield where a horrible war is being waged, and you see death and suffering all around you, and where your own life is in constant jeopardy, or would you rather read your Bible and learn those lessons within the safety of your recliner at home? I'm willing to bet it'd be the latter choice.

I'm willing to bet you would never knowingly give your child poisoned food, and if they did somehow eat any, I would hate to think you'd just sit there at the table, watching them foam at the mouth, twitching until they're dead on the floor, and then say "Well, I told you not to eat it!", and then go back to eating your own meal as nothing had happened. But that's pretty much what God did.

I have read numerous NDE accounts where people have said that supposedly on this Earth we can learn lessons faster than we can in heaven. Really? So what? How does speed matter in a realm where time and space have no meaning? Are all the souls in some kind of a race? What does that matter? It's also ridiculous, for the very fact that God can give us as much knowledge as he wants, as fast or as slow as he wants... it has nothing to do with location. In any case, I'm done with this argument, because I don't want to get banned, and I don't want to use language that sounds too harsh, or make it sound like I actually *hate* God, because I don't... I'm just angry with him at the moment, and want answers that I feel I deserve. It is not my intention to anger anyone here, and if I have, I apologize.