Fellowship

[mac]

responses - Fasaga's words in this color, my responses in blue

quote: Why is it so hard to accept that "speaking in tongues" is no less legitimate or a genuine paranormal event than mediumship, channelling, the afterlife or any other psyphenomena?" Mediumship creates a dialogue during which information is provided from a source specifically for the intended recipient. Information is given by the discarnate source to establish their identity often as a means of showing the continued existence of the communicator. That's the 'evidential mediumship' demonstrated by Modern Spiritualism's mediums. Does 'speaking in tongues' provide anything remotely similar? [I suggest this is not the right place for discussing channelling and the other points which, incidentally, I've dealt with elsewhere in the past.]

quote: I guess that's our judgemental, selfrightuous egos stepping up to the plate, can someone please show me the fundamental difference between speaking in tongues and channelling a spirit and why one is OK and the other must be the product of mental illness, and did someone reference drug induced jibberish? I think a channeller can better answer your question about channelling etc Might I have mentioned the drugs? Did I write what you claim or was it "Perhaps similar to the jibberish heard from those who take certain modern drugs (like mephedrone) when the abuser becomes almost incoherent." Never mind - why quote what someone says when you're rubbishing it - just make it up as nobody bothers to check. Politicians do it all the time - why not forum members too?

quote: I've witnessed this many times from many people and none of them were nuts (You had assessed all of them and are qualified to judge then?), some appeared in a trace like state, accepted some were fully aware, accepted none were in need of any attention and had no other motive for putting it on assumed.

None knew what the heck they were saying, all said it felt like the Holy Spirit speaking through them, interesting point - Perhaps you could explain, on their behalf, how they knew it was quote "Holy Spirit" speaking through them as opposed to something else, something else they had not experienced before?

none of them knew each other as this has spanned over my lifetime. showing what? Each individual would recite the same sequence of "words" each time they spoke in tongues and if you've heard that "jibberish" yourself, you will know that it is extremely unlikely to come out the exact same way twice if it was in fact just mindless babble. Interesting point but I doubt I'd have the ability to conclude that it was, quote "....the same sequence of "words" each time they spoke in tongues" when the alleged words and phrases couldn't be identified in the first instance. Rather like listening to a foreign language you know nothing about, spoken very quickly by various people at different points in time and then declaring they'd all said the same thing. really? You can be that certain? I don't believe I could and communications are my particular interest. I'd suggest that only an accomplished linguist might just stand a chance of doing it if anyone could....

quote: .....but let's not make judgement calls from a position of ignorance. hear, hear to that - I assume you'll be doing that yourself now you've read my responses?

[william61]

I understood your post William and wasn't directing my comments at yours.

Thanks Fasaga, I don't wish to offend anyone.
Bill.

[Fasaga]

responses - Fasaga's words in this color, my responses in blue

quote: Why is it so hard to accept that "speaking in tongues" is no less legitimate or a genuine paranormal event than mediumship, channelling, the afterlife or any other psyphenomena?" Mediumship creates a dialogue during which information is provided from a source specifically for the intended recipient. Information is given by the discarnate source to establish their identity often as a means of showing the continued existence of the communicator. That's the 'evidential mediumship' demonstrated by Modern Spiritualism's mediums. Does 'speaking in tongues' provide anything remotely similar? [I suggest this is not the right place for discussing channelling and the other points which, incidentally, I've dealt with elsewhere in the past.]

quote: I guess that's our judgemental, selfrightuous egos stepping up to the plate, can someone please show me the fundamental difference between speaking in tongues and channelling a spirit and why one is OK and the other must be the product of mental illness, and did someone reference drug induced jibberish? I think a channeller can better answer your question about channelling etc Might I have mentioned the drugs? Did I write what you claim or was it "Perhaps similar to the jibberish heard from those who take certain modern drugs (like mephedrone) when the abuser becomes almost incoherent." Never mind - why quote what someone says when you're rubbishing it - just make it up as nobody bothers to check. Politicians do it all the time - why not forum members too?

quote: I've witnessed this many times from many people and none of them were nuts (You had assessed all of them and are qualified to judge then?), some appeared in a trace like state, accepted some were fully aware, accepted none were in need of any attention and had no other motive for putting it on assumed.

None knew what the heck they were saying, all said it felt like the Holy Spirit speaking through them, interesting point - Perhaps you could explain, on their behalf, how they knew it was quote "Holy Spirit" speaking through them as opposed to something else, something else they had not experienced before?

none of them knew each other as this has spanned over my lifetime. showing what? Each individual would recite the same sequence of "words" each time they spoke in tongues and if you've heard that "jibberish" yourself, you will know that it is extremely unlikely to come out the exact same way twice if it was in fact just mindless babble. Interesting point but I doubt I'd have the ability to conclude that it was, quote "....the same sequence of "words" each time they spoke in tongues" when the alleged words and phrases couldn't be identified in the first instance. Rather like listening to a foreign language you know nothing about, spoken very quickly by various people at different points in time and then declaring they'd all said the same thing. really? You can be that certain? I don't believe I could and communications are my particular interest. I'd suggest that only an accomplished linguist might just stand a chance of doing it if anyone could....

quote: .....but let's not make judgement calls from a position of ignorance. hear, hear to that - I assume you'll be doing that yourself now you've read my responses?

Your responses prove my point exactly, only you may not see it.

[mac]

Your responses prove my point exactly, only you may not see it.

And your lack of response to all my points indicates that you can't support what you say.....

[Celera]

I attended Pentecostal/charismatic churches for many years, and have often witnessed, and personally experienced glossalalia, or speaking in tongues.

Participants in this type of worship usually point to an account in the book of Acts where the early disciples experienced the presence of the Holy Spirit and then began speaking in actual languages that they had never consciously learned -- as if I was to suddenly be able to say something to another person in Arabic or Chinese, so they could understand me. The miracle of this was that the Gospel was communicated to these passers-by who did not speak Aramaic or Hebrew or whatever the disciples normally spoke.

However, I have never observed this happening. The common practice is, as some have described, a sort of gibberish -- although there does seem to be some sort of syntax, at times, and it is not as easy to "fake" as you might think. Since visitors unfamiliar to the practice are usually put off rather than drawn in by it, I think it is not usually faked in order to increase membership, although I suppose it could happen.

The idea that it is like channeling or mediumship doesn't quite fit my experience or observation of it. Practitioners generally believe that the Holy Spirit is speaking/praying through them, or that their own Spirit is speaking/praying in a way that the conscious mind cannot articulate. I have come to see it as a phenomenon similar to meditating on a mantra. Often praying in tongues takes place in a service as the congregation sings a simple short song over and over, creating a sort of meditative environment. As the organ or other instruments continue to play, members may continue singing, they may pray silently, they may raise their hands to God and say Amen or Alleluia, or they may pray in tongues. It is typically a prayerful, meditative, but emotional experience.

The churches where this is practiced are generally quite conservative in their interpretation of the Bible, and could be considered fundamentalist in many cases. It is those very limiting beliefs that caused me to stop going to such churches myself -- I simply couldn't agree with the teachings. As a style of worship, I think the Pentecostals are on to something -- worship services engage the congregation mentally and emotionally and spiritually, in a way that many people don't experience in more traditional Sunday services. I haven't spoken in tongues for a long time, but I could see it fitting into a personal meditation practice.

[william61]

According to the article on Glossalalia on Victor Zammits site, not all speaking in tongues is undecipheral gibberish. Many just speak a common language that is foreign to the speaker, such as Swedish from someone from India for example. The point to it
Bill.

[ilovelearninhg]

I attended Pentecostal/charismatic churches for many years, and have often witnessed, and personally experienced glossalalia, or speaking in tongues.

Participants in this type of worship usually point to an account in the book of Acts where the early disciples experienced the presence of the Holy Spirit and then began speaking in actual languages that they had never consciously learned -- as if I was to suddenly be able to say something to another person in Arabic or Chinese, so they could understand me. The miracle of this was that the Gospel was communicated to these passers-by who did not speak Aramaic or Hebrew or whatever the disciples normally spoke.

However, I have never observed this happening. The common practice is, as some have described, a sort of gibberish -- although there does seem to be some sort of syntax, at times, and it is not as easy to "fake" as you might think. Since visitors unfamiliar to the practice are usually put off rather than drawn in by it, I think it is not usually faked in order to increase membership, although I suppose it could happen.

The idea that it is like channeling or mediumship doesn't quite fit my experience or observation of it. Practitioners generally believe that the Holy Spirit is speaking/praying through them, or that their own Spirit is speaking/praying in a way that the conscious mind cannot articulate. I have come to see it as a phenomenon similar to meditating on a mantra. Often praying in tongues takes place in a service as the congregation sings a simple short song over and over, creating a sort of meditative environment. As the organ or other instruments continue to play, members may continue singing, they may pray silently, they may raise their hands to God and say Amen or Alleluia, or they may pray in tongues. It is typically a prayerful, meditative, but emotional experience.

The churches where this is practiced are generally quite conservative in their interpretation of the Bible, and could be considered fundamentalist in many cases. It is those very limiting beliefs that caused me to stop going to such churches myself -- I simply couldn't agree with the teachings. As a style of worship, I think the Pentecostals are on to something -- worship services engage the congregation mentally and emotionally and spiritually, in a way that many people don't experience in more traditional Sunday services. I haven't spoken in tongues for a long time, but I could see it fitting into a personal meditation practice.

Yes the Pentecostals do seem to mingle spirituality with worship-it is the only church I've seen that has done so. My sister loves the experience even though she seems to slip into an altered state of consciousness. I just think it has to be someone's cup of tea to be open to it because in most cases it has to be an experience you want (I could be wrong though.) As I stated before, my sister describes it as the Holy Spirit, but what exactly is the Holy Spirit? Ah-that is another subject altogether.

[Roberta Grimes]

I attended Pentecostal/charismatic churches for many years, and have often witnessed, and personally experienced glossalalia, or speaking in tongues.

Participants in this type of worship usually point to an account in the book of Acts where the early disciples experienced the presence of the Holy Spirit and then began speaking in actual languages that they had never consciously learned -- as if I was to suddenly be able to say something to another person in Arabic or Chinese, so they could understand me. The miracle of this was that the Gospel was communicated to these passers-by who did not speak Aramaic or Hebrew or whatever the disciples normally spoke.

However, I have never observed this happening. The common practice is, as some have described, a sort of gibberish -- although there does seem to be some sort of syntax, at times, and it is not as easy to "fake" as you might think. Since visitors unfamiliar to the practice are usually put off rather than drawn in by it, I think it is not usually faked in order to increase membership, although I suppose it could happen.

The idea that it is like channeling or mediumship doesn't quite fit my experience or observation of it. Practitioners generally believe that the Holy Spirit is speaking/praying through them, or that their own Spirit is speaking/praying in a way that the conscious mind cannot articulate. I have come to see it as a phenomenon similar to meditating on a mantra. Often praying in tongues takes place in a service as the congregation sings a simple short song over and over, creating a sort of meditative environment. As the organ or other instruments continue to play, members may continue singing, they may pray silently, they may raise their hands to God and say Amen or Alleluia, or they may pray in tongues. It is typically a prayerful, meditative, but emotional experience.

The churches where this is practiced are generally quite conservative in their interpretation of the Bible, and could be considered fundamentalist in many cases. It is those very limiting beliefs that caused me to stop going to such churches myself -- I simply couldn't agree with the teachings. As a style of worship, I think the Pentecostals are on to something -- worship services engage the congregation mentally and emotionally and spiritually, in a way that many people don't experience in more traditional Sunday services. I haven't spoken in tongues for a long time, but I could see it fitting into a personal meditation practice.

Dear Celera, this is an excellent summary of what I have come to understand about speaking in tongues and those who practice it. Thank you!!

[ilovelearninhg]

Dear Celera, this is an excellent summary of what I have come to understand about speaking in tongues and those who practice it. Thank you!!

I agree, it is very good. Great job, Celera.

[Celera]

According to the article on Glossalalia on Victor Zammits site, not all speaking in tongues is undecipheral gibberish. Many just speak a common language that is foreign to the speaker, such as Swedish from someone from India for example. The point to it
Bill.

Bill, this form of glossalalia is more in keeping with the story in the New Testament, and I have heard accounts of people being able to do this. However, it isn't the usual practice in modern pentecostal services, in my experience.

As to an altered state of consciousness -- it depends on what you mean. Usually people will find themselves in a state of concentration, perhaps similar to being deeply absorbed in a musical performance. I have not observed anyone being in a trance such as a medium, for example, who is channeling another spirit. Again -- not saying what's possible, only what is common in my experience.