Is this universe eternal?

[Cromulent]

It's been suggested in other threads that the existence of linear time is merely a contrivance unique to this universe, meant to keep everything from happening simultaneously. Also, I take it that from outside this universe, on the "higher planes," our reality appears as a timeless unit. Okay, fine; I can deal with that.

What I'm curious about is whether our universe will appear to exist forever from within its own reference frame. As some of you may know, current theory in cosmology suggests that time itself began with the conversion of our universe from an infinitely-dense singularity into an ever-expanding morass of space-time and mass-energy, and so far there are no indications that the nature of time will be changing under any conceivable circumstance. Therefore, under current secular views, the universe's existence will basically be infinite.

Does that agree with current "afterlife research" thinking? Will there be no point, within our Earthly reference frame, when every soul has been "rehabilitated" and made ready to return to God? Will there be troubled souls here for all time, within the perspective of the incarnate souls themselves? Or perhaps, will there come some day in the distant future when this reality becomes entirely de-populated of all sentient life, and left to while away its infinite decline in solitude since it no longer serves a purpose?

Any ideas?

[Annie]

I think it is eternal, but it will change a lot over the years. I don't know the answer for sure, but I think that what I've gathered here on this forum is that our spirits will advance more as time, or the illusion of time, passes and earth will become a happier, more peaceful place. I don't know if this is something that is going to happen for sure or if it's just a hopeful theory. But if it does happen, I definitely think we have a long way to go before that day comes because there is so much corruption in the world.

I've heard several times that the sun will eventually collide into the earth, but that is billions of years from now and maybe by then we'll have advanced so much that we don't need to incarnate anymore?

[Andrew]

This is certainly a complicated question, dear Cromulent! I'm not 100% sure what the answer is, but I can certainly tell you what the evidence tells us.

1. The universe doesn't really exist:
The universe can't actually exist forever, since it doesn't really exist. I know that you were asking about its existence from the view of a being in the universe, but I just wanted to make this fact clear. This is all an illusion, and all illusion have an end.

2. Eventually there will be no one here:
Once all the sentient beings who come here to make progress are past the point of needing to reincarnate here, there will be no sentient life (if any life) here. I'm not sure if the decrease in population will be a steady one or happen all at once but, eventually the whole planet (along with all the others in the universe) will become barren of sentient life. And logic tells me that if there is no need for sentient, there is no need for any form on non-sentient life (assuming it exists).

3. Does something exist if no one experiences it?:
It all comes down to this, my friend: if a tree fall in the forest with no one around, does it actually make a sound? Of course the illusion of time and of the universe will cease to exist when they're done serving their purposes. I'm not sure how that would happen from the perspective of someone in the universe, but, since there will be no one actually in the universe, I don't think the perspective would actually exist.

Annie, scientifically speaking, you are correct. When the sun eventually begins to run out of hydrogen to convert to helium, it will gradually begin to swell immensely and will eventually engulf the first three of four planets (definitely destroying the earth). That won't happen for several billion years (I forget if it's five or ten billion, but we'll be long gone by then)! If this does happen, it would certainly be the end of our earthly school, but it would not be the end of the universe. I'm also certain that nothing natural will destroy the earth while people still need it to learn.

[OrichalcumEye]

This is certainly a complicated question, dear Cromulent! I'm not 100% sure what the answer, but I can certainly tell you what the evidence tells us.

1. The universe doesn't really exist:
The universe can't actually exist forever, since it doesn't really exist. I know that you were asking about its existence from the view of a being in the universe, but I just wanted to make this fact clear. This is all an illusion, and all illusion have an end.

You have to be joking. I can accept believing that the universe isn't real to the same extent that the "higher reality" is, but you seem to be claiming that the entire observable universe (which we are now using to communicate with one another) isn't actually there, and... what? We're both just pretending to read a screen and type on a keyboard? Even in the movie The Matrix, the clearly-fake computer-simulated world could be said to exist in that it was possible to interact with that world in an objective fashion.

[OldManRobot]

You have to be joking. I can accept believing that the universe isn't real to the same extent that the "higher reality" is, but you seem to be claiming that the entire observable universe (which we are now using to communicate with one another) isn't actually there, and... what? We're both just pretending to read a screen and type on a keyboard? Even in the movie The Matrix, the clearly-fake computer-simulated world could be said to exist in that it was possible to interact with that world in an objective fashion.

There's no need to nit-pick like this, OrichalcumEye. I think we both understood his meaning well enough.

As a side note, I recently read an article suggesting that by the time it reaches red giant status the Sun will have lost so much mass that all planetary orbits will be considerably wider, sparing the Earth an untimely death by plasma bath. So, we might luck out there.

[Andrew]

OrichalcumEye, I understand your confusion. It's quite natural, my friend - this is very hard for most people to accept. I just want to clarify though that I try to state just the evidence, with as little spin as is possible. Let my try to clarify:

1. From our perspective the universe is very real:
From our earthly perspective the universe is very real but, in reality, both this universe and the afterlife levels are illusory. In actuality, we are each a little speck of light against a completely black background. All of us come together to form the God, or the Universal Mind/Spirit - whatever you want to call Him. We are each an important part of God, because God is all that is real. This is the seventh afterlife level, when we are all joined together with God. Just to clarify, a large part of us is still with God and was never separate from Him. In retrospect, "come together" might not have been the right way to phrase it. This whole separation that we experience is nothing but an illusion. We are God and God is We.

2. Eventually this universe and the afterlife levels won't be needed:
Once everyone has become advanced and progressed enough to reach that seventh level, there will be no need for the afterlife levels and certainly no need for this universe. I'm not sure exactly what the end of time/the universe would look to someone in the universe at the time, but, as I said in my reply before, the universe will cease to exist when our need for it ceases to exist, so there will likely be no one in it. I can't be certain of this of course, but it is my best guess.

3. Linear Time is an illusion:
When we get to the afterlife levels, we begin to get over the illusion of time. Here time is so rigid, but there it is endless and stretchy. There's no rushing, no being late, and no waiting. Everything can happen pretty much as quickly or as slowly as is needed. Any time that is experienced here and there is an illusion. Right now we are here, but we also united with God at the end of the spiritual, and united with God before Creation happened. You see, in Creation, time sprung up. God quickly put an end to it, so it doesn't exist. The problem is that we are right now in the perspective of that time. It's really mind-boggling if you think about it! So, technically, this conversation has already ended and never begun!

4. Think of the Universe like a school - a means to an end:
Looking at the universe like a school will really help you get an understand of what I mean. Think about school, you go there to learn (obviously), but, while what happens there has some effect on our overall lives (getting straight As versus flunking), it generally isn't a permanent effect. For example, if you fail English, you can take it again the next year and then move on at some point. The same is true with life: if you fail (ex. become a serial killer), then you may end up in the lower, dark, cold afterlife levels. It won't be permanent though, eventually you will united with God. Life is also like a school because it is a means to an end. Why do you do school work? To become educated. Why do you choose (re)incarnate here? To learn and gain experience and wisdom.

5. Technically, we are pretending right now:
As ridiculous as it may sound, our Higher Selves (the aware part of us) actually see this as a pretend life. Before we can be born, we must agree to participate fully in this illusion. Otherwise how would we learn? So this is a pretend life, and some part of us does realize that right now. That part of us will, as soon as we either learned our lesson(s) or have are too far gone to learn anything in this life, find the fastest way out of here.

I've tried to explain this as best as I can. I hope that, at some point, Roberta will contribute to this thread. She often explains things much better than I am able to. Until then though, if you have any questions, please ask and I will try to response thoroughly to them!

[Andrew]

OldManRobot,

I'm sorry! I got so wrapped up in responding to OrichalcumEye's comment, that I forgot to address yours! I may have read something about that too. It's sounds familiar. Anyway, I'm sure that nothing natural will destroy the earth while people/other sentient beings still have a need for it. Whether or not we humans will destroy it, however, is a question that I cannot answer...

[Roberta Grimes]

Hello everyone! I have been away for a week and had horrible internet - I could read but not post - so it is good to be home at last, and able to participate! Thanks to everyone - this is a wonderful thread! - and Vita, you have handled it as well as I could have done. It has been frustrating to be reading but unable to jump in, so please forgive me for chattering here more than is necessary, but you all have given me a lot to think about! What Vita says here is right, based on nearly two centuries worth of afterlife evidence: this universe is entirely illusory. The only thing that exists is Mind, and each of our minds is part of that universal Mind. But what does that say about how best to answer Cromulent's original question?

It's been suggested in other threads that the existence of linear time is merely a contrivance unique to this universe, meant to keep everything from happening simultaneously. Also, I take it that from outside this universe, on the "higher planes," our reality appears as a timeless unit. Okay, fine; I can deal with that.

What I'm curious about is whether our universe will appear to exist forever from within its own reference frame. As some of you may know, current theory in cosmology suggests that time itself began with the conversion of our universe from an infinitely-dense singularity into an ever-expanding morass of space-time and mass-energy, and so far there are no indications that the nature of time will be changing under any conceivable circumstance. Therefore, under current secular views, the universe's existence will basically be infinite.

Does that agree with current "afterlife research" thinking? Will there be no point, within our Earthly reference frame, when every soul has been "rehabilitated" and made ready to return to God? Will there be troubled souls here for all time, within the perspective of the incarnate souls themselves? Or perhaps, will there come some day in the distant future when this reality becomes entirely de-populated of all sentient life, and left to while away its infinite decline in solitude since it no longer serves a purpose?

Any ideas?

After mulling this question for awhile, I have got to say that the answer to Cromulent's question is NO. The uiverse had a finite beginning (as he points out), and the universe will have a finite ending. As the last bit of Mind ceases to incarnate here, the universe will no longer be supported by Mind so it will go out of existence altogether. Time as we know it here will cease as well. Gary Renard's first book about the teachings of A Course in Miracles was entitled The Disappearance of the Universe for just this reason! When we no longer need it, the universe will disappear. As Crom points out, this is an understanding far different from what mainstream physicists imagine, since they consider the universe to be objectively real and also subject to the laws of macro-physics. But physics is merely another construct of Mind - it has no independent reality. Does this help to answer everybody's questions??

[Firebird]

This actually raises a somewhat related point: since the universe is supposedly only here for the sake of instruction, does that mean that none of its 13+ billion years of history (as independently revealed through observation of various phenomena) is fictional? I.e., did the universe exist before people did, illusory or not?

[Roberta Grimes]

Hmmm. I am not sure how to answer your question, Firebird, but I will take a stab:

1) People not in bodies are part of Mind, nevertheless. The universe came from Mind, and each of us is a part of Mind, so the fact that we may not have been in bodies here for awhile after the universe began is not important. Since time is not real, we are eternal - we never began, and we will never end.

2) Intelligent life is all over the universe. So we could have been incarnating on other planets for eons before the first humanoid was born on earth!

3) Mind might have evolved through primitive life-forms. One of the many things that I wonder about is whether in fact our minds have evolved, perhaps even from origins as simple as individual plant or animal cells. There are some tiny hints that this may have happened, but not enough to pin a theory on.

4) We are told that the universe is neither as old nor as large as we believe it to be. I have read this in various forms from higher-level beings so often that I consider it to be likely true. Part of the illusion that is the universe is a back-story of great age and a tremendous volume of size... but neither time nor space is objectively real. And the universe that we consider to be solid and constant is apparently more like a playscape for very bright children in which we keep coming to the edge so more must hastily be added. I recall reading about someone who randomly pointed a deep-space telescope at an area of the sky long thought to be empty - and when he returned to it awhile later, he was amazed to see billions of galaxies there. Knowing what we have been told about the non-permanence and smaller size of this universe, I wonder whether those galaxies were hastily put there so the children would be kept amused awhile longer!

- So no, Cromulent, the universe did not exist before we did. But since we always have existed, it still can be very old indeed!