The mind after death: fear, anger, greed, unwanted thoughts...

[Gypsyblue]

Some of us who have had some negative experiences (like child abuse) have some unwanted thoughts that continue into our daily life. Although I've had some wonderful and reassuring spiritual experiences and have been a practitioner most of my adult life, have no desire for vengeance or for a reckoning with any one, and have forgiven every one on a conscious level, some unwanted and vengeful thoughts still automatically appear in my mind - like when I'm trying to go to sleep.

I don't regard these thoughts as being "me" but maybe they are. I think of them as being some kind of automatic reflex action with no conscious "me" behind them. They're like an old cassette recorder on autoplay...tape loops. Habit energy. Parts of hero stories I told myself as a child to calm my fears and give me comfort.

Although my friends see me as being a good, creative, caring and spiritual person, I cannot get rid of these old tapes completely and doubt that I ever will. Personally I doubt that any thing/energy/experience can be deleted or destroyed - just transformed.

And as an artist, I know that what I went through helps gives my art a passion, soul and depth that seems to affect and connect people and come from deep within. Wouldn't want to "throw the baby out with the bath water" so to speak even if I could rid myself 100% of the pain, and my responses to it, that I experienced as a child.

But here's my question: will these unwanted and uncomfortable thoughts continue after my body dies? Or are they part of the mind generated by the brain and body so that they will "die" with my brain when my body dies?

[vic smyth]

When we are finished with this silly game of make believe called life and return back Home, we will find that our Spiritual Companions will love us just the way we are. Until that day we should do our best to just be who we are and let others be who they are.

With Lovingkindness (metta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/buddharakkhita/wheel365.html#intro)),
vic's myth

[Andrew]

Simply put, dear GypsyBlue, the answer is yes and no. Immediately after death, we are the exact same people that we were whilst alive, and will still have the same feelings about people. But, soon after death, we go through a process where we forgive everyone (including ourselves) for what bad things were done on earth. And then, we move on! So, no one keeps their negative feelings in the afterlife after successfully going through this process!

[Roberta Grimes]

Some of us who have had some negative experiences (like child abuse) have some unwanted thoughts that continue into our daily life. Although I've had some wonderful and reassuring spiritual experiences and have been a practitioner most of my adult life, have no desire for vengeance or for a reckoning with any one, and have forgiven every one on a conscious level, some unwanted and vengeful thoughts still automatically appear in my mind - like when I'm trying to go to sleep.

I don't regard these thoughts as being "me" but maybe they are. I think of them as being some kind of automatic reflex action with no conscious "me" behind them. They're like an old cassette recorder on autoplay...tape loops. Habit energy. Parts of hero stories I told myself as a child to calm my fears and give me comfort.

Although my friends see me as being a good, creative, caring and spiritual person, I cannot get rid of these old tapes completely and doubt that I ever will. Personally I doubt that any thing/energy/experience can be deleted or destroyed - just transformed.

And as an artist, I know that what I went through helps gives my art a passion, soul and depth that seems to affect and connect people and come from deep within. Wouldn't want to "throw the baby out with the bath water" so to speak even if I could rid myself 100% of the pain, and my responses to it, that I experienced as a child.

But here's my question: will these unwanted and uncomfortable thoughts continue after my body dies? Or are they part of the mind generated by the brain and body so that they will "die" with my brain when my body dies?

Dear wonderful Gypsy, I would love to tell you that these negative thoughts will fall away when you graduate, but I don't think it's that simple. They certainly are not part of your material brain - they are mistaken beliefs of your mind, so you will carry them with you when you withdraw from this material brain for the last time. As our dear Andrew says, you will review the events which gave rise to these negative thoughts as part of your overall life review, and you will then forgive everyone who ever wronged you. That much we know! But I am coming to think that the need to forgive posthumously which seems to be the primary reason for the life-review may be a failing on our parts. Do perfected beings need a life-review? Probably not. I doubt that Jesus would have had to bother with one. So the very fact of needing to review events and then forgive all the participants (including oneself) is coming to seem to me to be an indication that we may not have learned all that we could possibly learn in this most recent lifetime.

And I know you, my beloved friend. You are a spiritual over-achiever ;-). You may be able to rid your mind completely of these negative experiences, which probably are only there at all because on some level you still have not completely forgiven the participants. I suggest that you try an experiment, if you are willing. Once each day, call each participant's face into your mind and say to each of them, "You are Christ, pure and innocent. All is forgiven and released." Even though you don't consciously bear anyone ill will, you can help yourself immeasurably if you will try to work your forgiveness on a deep subconscious level. If you can do that every day for a couple of weeks, I think you will find the negative associates beginning to lessen. Eventually they should fall away. I hope you will try it, dear friend - you richly deserve to have a mind entirely free of shadows!

[Annie]

I don't know, I think you can forgive people but still feel the pain they caused and wishing things had gone a little differently. Especially things that happened in childhood when you were young and impressionable and couldn't defend yourself. I'm hoping that things will be so different and so clear in the afterlife that it will be easy to let go of any pain. I do often wish that life was a little easier, but I just have to remind myself that this is all fleeting. In a thousand years, your soul will still be around, and any hardships you've gone through while on earth will just be distant memories, or blips on the radar.

[Roberta Grimes]

I don't know, I think you can forgive people but still feel the pain they caused and wishing things had gone a little differently. Especially things that happened in childhood when you were young and impressionable and couldn't defend yourself. I'm hoping that things will be so different and so clear in the afterlife that it will be easy to let go of any pain. I do often wish that life was a little easier, but I just have to remind myself that this is all fleeting. In a thousand years, your soul will still be around, and any hardships you've gone through while on earth will just be distant memories, or blips on the radar.

Dear Annie and Gypsy and everyone, I don't know why this works, but it does. I didn't believe it either... until I tried it myself. And you can do it for anyone with whom you have unfinished business that will now never be finished on earth, or for any whole situation that still bothers you. Once each day call him or her (or the situation) into your mind, and think (and mean) "You are Christ, pure and innocent. All is forgiven and released." The time that it takes varies, but after a week or a month or eventually you start to feel silly doing it anymore because the thought of the person or event no longer causes an emotional reaction. The thought of whatever had troubled you before starts to seem like just ash in your mind, as if it had been burning but the fire is out.

Whether you do this or not, dear Gypsy, our wonderful Annie is right: you will forgive completely and move on once you have transitioned. Your whole lifetime here is just a tough day in school! I think of all the horrendous lives that have been lived in human history, and I realize that we were the ones who lived those lives: we were on a thousand crosses lining Roman roads and butchered by Genghis Khan and tortured under the Inquisition and starved and murdered in concentration camps. Living repeated awful lives on earth is the very stuff of being briefly human! When it comes to you, dear blessed Gypsy, I can't stand to think of anything troubling you, but I know that you have been through worse and you will be cleansed of all these negative thoughts soon after you graduate, no matter what you do now. So please just enjoy your wonderful new marriage and the peace of knowing that all will be well ;-)!

[Gypsyblue]

Thank you Roberta. I hardly know what to say! That was so kind of you. And I will put your suggestion into practice. I think it's a good one...and I believe it's true. I do believe we're all the Christ...or Buddhas to be. However you want to picture it. To me, the two are interchangeable. :)

[RudeAwakening]

Gypsy, the following is in no way a suggestion relative to your circumstances, it's simply an opinion I want to share on this general subject.

When it comes to spiritual matters I always feel compelled to let my instincts be my guide. At 50 years of age my current view on this is to proceed as comfortably as I can and not put pressure on myself to forgive every POS that's rained on my parade over the years.

I am of the opinion that conjuring up an image of each of these "pure and innocent" people on a daily basis would not only not produce the desired affect, but could in fact disrupt the balance I work very hard to maintaine at this stage of my life.

I could change my mind, but I think I'll just be patient and forgive these people after my
death when I will find it much easier to do. I don't see them as pure and innocent and to be honest, just the thought of this exercise puts me in a bad frame of mind. My interaction with the world will be better served if I just concentrate on being a quality person and try to limit my recollection of the foul people I've encountered.

[Roberta Grimes]

Gypsy, the following is in no way a suggestion relative to your circumstances, it's simply an opinion I want to share on this general subject.

When it comes to spiritual matters I always feel compelled to let my instincts be my guide. At 50 years of age my current view on this is to proceed as comfortably as I can and not put pressure on myself to forgive every POS that's rained on my parade over the years.

I am of the opinion that conjuring up an image of each of these "pure and innocent" people on a daily basis would not only not produce the desired affect, but could in fact disrupt the balance I work very hard to maintaine at this stage of my life.

I could change my mind, but I think I'll just be patient and forgive these people after my
death when I will find it much easier to do. I don't see them as pure and innocent and to be honest, just the thought of this exercise puts me in a bad frame of mind. My interaction with the world will be better served if I just concentrate on being a quality person and try to limit my recollection of the foul people I've encountered.

Thank you, dear wonderful Awakening - you raise an excellent point! We all want to make progress spiritually, but it is important that in trying to grow we attempt only exercises and steps which resonate with our own minds. Listen to your intuition! If an idea that you come across is right, you will know it. In my own experience, simply putting out the intention that you want to take the next step on your personal journey is enough to bring the right teachers and events front-and-center in your life. For example, perhaps a decade ago I kept hearing about and reading about A Course in Miracles - the title just kept turning up. So one day when I was early for an appointment I found my wheel turning without much thought, and I ended up going into a Borders bookstore (now sadly shuttered). I went to the religion/spirituality section, wondering how I would find the book when I didn't even know what it would look like. And among all those jammed shelves there was one whole shelf that had nothing whatsoever on it except for one copy of A Course in Miracles, facing out at me. I was amazed! I picked it up, wondering, and brought it to the checkout counter. The clerk was puzzled because the book wouldn't scan. He looked it up on his computer and said to me, "I'm sorry - we don't carry this." (Most bookstores carry it now.) He shrugged then and added, "Is twenty bucks okay?"

Jesus says, “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.” (MT 7:7-8) That turns out to be literally true!!

[RudeAwakening]

Thank you Roberta for clarifying that. All the talk of forgiveness on this forum can be a bit overwhelming at times. The subtle implication that we should be strong enough, and spiritually mature enough to readily and willingly forgive intentional and repeated psychological cruelty inflicted on us by another can literally feel like further victimization from the same tormentor.

Another way to look at it, like Gypsy said, is throwing out the baby with the bath water. We are a product of these hardships and making sincere effort to forgive the perpetrator of such horrors should be viewed as a luxury if and when it can be afforded and not a duty. I have no qualms about maintaining a sneer of disgust when certain people come to mind until I take my last breath in this world and no concerns about it impeding my spiritual growth.

Very cool story about the book Roberta. I’ve seen some interesting things like that too, not quite like that, but close enough. They seem to be able to act on the material world in interesting ways sometimes. And thanks for the input on seeking further spiritual advancement when we feel ready. I’ve haven’t been spending enough time in this world in recent years and must get back to it in for financial considerations. I don’t anticipate actively and ambitiously seeking further enlightenment at this time, but that’s never stopped them before. :D

[Andrew]

This is just my opinion, but I would rather learn to forgive now than have to do so in the afterlife. That way, when I die, I can get right to the Summerland without too much bother. Apparently, while forgiving may be easier to do in the afterlife, it is more valuable to learn here.

[Andrew]

I love your story about ACIM, Roberta! The intricate workings of Spirit never cease to amaze me!

[RudeAwakening]

This is just my opinion, but I would rather learn to forgive now than have to do so in the afterlife. That way, when I die, I can get right to the Summerland without too much bother. Apparently, while forgiving may be easier to do in the afterlife, it is more valuable to learn here.

Andrew, my argument is not really a matter of actually learning to forgive, but being willing and able to forgive all persons that have harmed you, regardless of their act, while we are still incarnate.

If you’re making this very general statement in order to clarify for new readers that learning to forgive, while on earth, is one of the primary reasons we are here, then sure, absolutely. “Spiritual Growth and the Meaning of Life - 101.”

I am positing that in specific circumstances attempting to force oneself to forgive another, based on this black and white argument, could be far more damaging to one’s spiritual growth than the simple human act of holding another in contempt for the remainder of this lifetime.

We all understand this basic principal. I simply don’t see it in such absolute terms. This is the same tree in the road you and I have been running into repeatedly and have discussed in detail. Your premise is irrefutably sound on paper – and I do know it’s just your opinion. We see examples everyday of people forgiving the seemingly impossible to forgive. To assume this can be a learned and unconditionally beneficial behavior isn’t realistic in my opinion, unless there is overwhelming evidence to show that forced and emotionally disturbing attempts at blanket forgiveness of all offenses, while here on earth, is irrefutably in the best interest of the soul?

Unless an individual is one of those rare people than can forgive the seemingly unforgivable, isn’t it at least possible, in your opinion, that some things are better handled on the other side? I know you and others have this heavenly concept of a “get out of jail free card” if only you are able to resist, by force if necessary, some of the most basic of human instincts. I wonder if in fact we don’t actually create more barriers by attempting to achieve spiritual advancement by force.

[vic smyth]

RudeAwakening, you make a good point. That's why I keep on harping that we should simply be who we are. Love ourselves unconditionally just as we are. Even to just accept ourselves the way we are. But from the feedback (or, more often, lack of feedback) that I receive on this forum and elsewhere, it seems that I am quite alone in my view. I suppose that there's a lesson that I should learn from that as well...

With Lovingkindness (metta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/buddharakkhita/wheel365.html#intro)),
vic

[Carol and Mikey]

Mikey tells me forgiveness is for yourself. Only for yourself. He says to remember that you are human and certain things can be tough to forgive. The question boils down is this: Do you want to waste your good loving energy on someone who chooses to be hurtful and non-loving? You cannot change them. The only one we can control is ourself. Only our "own actions". Understand that everyone is responsible for themselves. So with that in mind, is it worth it to hold the grudge? Mikey says it is a waste of your energy. In the end, it doesn't matter because we are only responsible for ourself. Forgiveness absolutely doesn't mean you need to continue to associate or be around the person. It is only for you. Move on. Put that "baggage" on a boat and set it off to sail! Ultimately it is your choice. But to give the person who is being hurtful to you the satisfaction of "knowing they gotcha" can fuel more hurtful behavior. And that is not good. Instead, let it go. Show them how they should act and move on. It will be like lifting a huge weight off your shoulders. These hurtful actions are by no means worth wasting your energy on according to Mikey. It may take time depending on the issue at hand, but do know in the long run you will feel much better knowing you're not wasting good energy on bad.
Mikey says be aware of yourself, and not the bad behaviors you have recieved. In Heaven, nothing goes unnoticed. Mikey also says "letting go of certain things" is actually being more loving in an "indirect way". :)
Carol and Mikey "in Spirit"

[RudeAwakening]

Mikey tells me forgiveness is for yourself. Only for yourself. He says to remember that you are human and certain things can be tough to forgive. The question boils down is this: Do you want to waste your good loving energy on someone who chooses to be hurtful and non-loving? You cannot change them. The only one we can control is ourself. Only our "own actions". Understand that everyone is responsible for themselves. So with that in mind, is it worth it to hold the crudge? Mikey says it is a waste of your energy. In the end, it doesn't matter because we are only responsible for ourself. Forgiveness absolutely doesn't mean you need to continue to associate or be around the person. It is only for you. Move on. Put that "baggage" on a boat and set it off to sail! Ultimately it is your choice. But to give the person who is being hurtful to you the satisfaction of "knowing they gotcha" can fuel more hurtful behavior. And that is not good. Instead, let it go. Show them how they should act and move on. It will be like lifting a huge weight off your shoulders. These hurtful actions are by no means worth wasting your energy on according to Mikey. It may take time depending on the issue at hand, but do know in the long run you will feel much better knowing you're not wasting good energy on bad.
Mikey says be aware of yourself, and not the bad behaviors you have recieved. In Heaven, nothing goes unnoticed. Mikey also says "letting go of certain things" is actually being more loving in an "indirect way". :)
Carol and Mikey "in Spirit"

This is more or less what I mean. I see a world of difference between letting something go and coming to terms with it and moving on, and actually making an effort to forgive, especially if we're talking about persons that we don't consider family or friends. Family members would fall into a different category but the concept is still the same.

If forgiveness is just for us then it follows that emotionally handling the situation in whichever way brings us the most peace would also be what is best for us. Struggling to forgive seems as counterproductive as holding a grudge. No one should feel bad about themselves because they are more comfortable not forgiving a particular person. Being true to yourself and your feelings is more important.

[Andrew]

I agree, Awakening, no one should feel bad about themselves because they are not able to forgive. All is eventually forgiven, so everything will be okay at some point in the future.

I feel like I should just clarify one thing though: when I "forgive", I don't mean "allow that person to harm you again". There is a fine line between forgiving and becoming a door mat. Still, it is possible (people do it all the time, it makes the news a lot) to forgive entirely but not to allow that person the same trust/privileges to which they were once privy. For example, you could tell someone that you forgive them completely, but then tell them that you don't feel as though they should be in your life based on past actions, and walk away from your relationship with that person abset invidia.

[Richard]

I've been following this tread, and, I like everyone else have been wronged, sometimes by the people we love. Usually, these wrongs are a result of selfishness and greed, the opposite of love. In my opinion, be forgiving and letting go, the selfishness and greed, which I believe is usually the motivations to these wrongs no longer have a hold on us and we are better able to follow our purpose which is to love. Just my opinion/

[Andrew]

Wonderfully said, dear Richard!

[Carol and Mikey]

Mikey agrees with Richard! Let it go! Why focus on negative when you can use your energy to be positive and loving! Mikey continues to say that positive energy/behavior will always win over negative energy/behaviors. He tells me that love is always the answer! :) Love wins all issues on earth! :)
Carol and Mikey "in Spirit"

[Richard]

Carol, can you ask Mikey for me is it the reason we must learn to forgive in this life and to learn to love in our lifetimes, is because it can be so difficult here to do these things because, when we go out of our way to love, we open our selves up to hurt and betrayal, and that does not exist in Summerland. If we can love and forgive here, we can love and forgive anywhere? I so love his responses, I hope in the future I will be fortunate to meet will him after this is over!

[orangeysky]

I wish I had more to add. I just love all of these posts, how absolutely wonderful!

[Carol and Mikey]

Mikey tells me love is what it is all about here, and in Heaven. He understands that some of the worst heartaches we experience here on earth involve the people we love the most. These life trials truly test love and forgiveness. Remember that you can only control yourself. We do the best we can, and sometimes it can be very difficult depending on the "hurt" involved. Understand that life here can be a tough short lesson. But letting go of things (negative issues) and moving on truly is an indirect loving way to forgiveness. We are not to be doormats. In Heaven we see and feel the consequences of how we handle things at our review. Mikey tells me it is far better for spiritual growth to be positive (loving) than to hold on to negative issues (non-loving). We can only control ourself. Hurtful people will have to deal with their own problems when they get to Heaven. So don't let them use their negative energy to interfere with your positive ways! Let go of their negative energy! In Heaven, your efforts will be noted! :)
Mikey tells me love and forgiveness is most challenged on earth. Mikey tells in the Summerlands, this type of hurtful behavior does not exist. Love is what exists. :) Sounds good to me!!!!!!!
Richard, I am sure Mikey will be at the Afterlife Forum Reunion in Heaven! You will meet him! I told him to be sure there is good disco music at the party! 70's Rock too!!!!! :)
Carol and Mikey "in Spirit"

[Richard]

Carol and Mikey thank you so much, I have recently suffered a very bad betrayal by someone I love very much, and I am trying very hard to forgive and get past it. Mikey's message is very helpful and comforting. Looking forward to the disco party reunion in Heaven, and meeting with Mikey and any forum members who have graduated!!!!

[RudeAwakening]

I agree, Awakening, no one should feel bad about themselves because they are not able to forgive. All is eventually forgiven, so everything will be okay at some point in the future.

I feel like I should just clarify one thing though: when I "forgive", I don't mean "allow that person to harm you again". There is a fine line between forgiving and becoming a door mat. Still, it is possible (people do it all the time, it makes the news a lot) to forgive entirely but not to allow that person the same trust/privileges to which they were once privy. For example, you could tell someone that you forgive them completely, but then tell them that you don't feel as though they should be in your life based on past actions, and walk away from your relationship with that person abset invidia.

Andrew I would like to give you a specific example for you to comment on, if you don't mind? Other than what perhaps Gypsy is alluding to, the forgiveness theme in this thread seems to be centered around betrayal or emotional abuse from family or friends, in other words white collar - "how could you do that to me" - sort of thing. Admittedly painful and certainly difficult to forgive in many instances, but the perpetrator and victim have a relationship that gives rise to the pain associated with the betrayal. White collar forgiveness.

In the past I've have had my life threatened on several occasions and have been otherwise terrorized by some real human waste. I handled myself well and reacted appropriately, non violently and with courage and overcame the circumstances to prevail. I don't give it much thought anymore, but this sort of discussion brings it front and center. Can I forgive an ex love for cheating on me, sure, eventually because we had a personal relationship. White collar forgiveness. So I'm asking you Andrew, should I be willing to make the painful and infuriating effort to forgive the human waste I describe above, while still incarnate, or just let that sleeping dog lie and handle that one on the other side? What's your take on that one?

[Gypsyblue]

Forgiveness is easier if I first picture the person who hurt me as he/she originally was as an innocent child. Then I envision the hurt that he/she must have experienced that then set him/her on the course that led to me and others being hurt.

I do believe that hurt people, hurt people.

I also find it easier to forgive myself if I picture myself as an innocent child (which I once was of course!) and hold and send love to that child I once was.

[Richard]

Gypsyblue, I love that description, Wow!!!!

[RudeAwakening]

Forgiveness is easier if I first picture the person who hurt me as he/she originally was as an innocent child. Then I envision the hurt that he/she must have experienced that then set him/her on the course that led to me and others being hurt.

I do believe that hurt people, hurt people.

I also find it easier to forgive myself if I picture myself as an innocent child (which I once was of course!) and hold and send love to that child I once was.

This is an excellent post Gypsy. I like the idea of picturing oneself as an innocent child. That does make it easier to forgive some of our emotionally driven bad behavior. And I definitely agree that in many cases hurt people hurt other people. No one is surprised when an abused child grows up to abuse. Those adults that overcome such adversity to become high quality kind people, as a result of the abuse they suffered, are truly admirable people.

For most of us though it seems we make a conscious choice to be abusive and use our own suffering as an excuse to be ugly and hurtful to others. We are all guilty of it to some extent and can’t help ourselves at times. But, are we to automatically forgive those among us who willingly and almost gleefully promote their life pain to the status of “I can now justify every abuse I dish out by simple virtue of my own pain.”

It seems there are those that can use the abuse they’ve suffered to become more compassionate, tolerant and understanding; nothing like on the job training to facilitate movement in one direction or another. It’s that conscious decision to be evil to others through some form of weak rationalization that makes blanket forgiveness of them so difficult. If anything this discussion has further solidified in my mind that such forgiveness is counterintuitive and impractical in our current society. We are still very barbaric in our evolution and not holding people accountable for their behavior while incarnate seems a little like allowing a poorly behaved child to terrorize the peaceful.

Like Mikey and Vic said, we can show them how to behave, but we should be who we are for the times we’re in. If enough people aren’t willing or able to hold others accountable when necessary, (this includes not forgiving them their atrocities) there would be no meek left to inherit the earth. We’re not there yet.

[Andrew]

Andrew I would like to give you a specific example for you to comment on, if you don't mind? Other than what perhaps Gypsy is alluding to, the forgiveness theme in this thread seems to be centered around betrayal or emotional abuse from family or friends, in other words white collar - "how could you do that to me" - sort of thing. Admittedly painful and certainly difficult to forgive in many instances, but the perpetrator and victim have a relationship that gives rise to the pain associated with the betrayal. White collar forgiveness.

In the past I've have had my life threatened on several occasions and have been otherwise terrorized by some real human waste. I handled myself well and reacted appropriately, non violently and with courage and overcame the circumstances to prevail. I don't give it much thought anymore, but this sort of discussion brings it front and center. Can I forgive an ex love for cheating on me, sure, eventually because we had a personal relationship. White collar forgiveness. So I'm asking you Andrew, should I be willing to make the painful and infuriating effort to forgive the human waste I describe above, while still incarnate, or just let that sleeping dog lie and handle that one on the other side? What's your take on that one?

Personally, I would make an effort to forgive them. That's my opinion. In my case, I don't want to have to deal with any of these issues when I die - I have more interesting things to spend an eternity or two on. Plus, the purpose we come here is to learn how to forgive, so why not go for it while we're here.

Forgiveness isn't easy, but it is needed. Everyone forgives after they die - mostly people say that the greatest faults don't matter at that point. We are supposed to at least try though to forgive whilst here. It's like being kind - sure, it's easier to do in the Summerland, but the point is to learn how to be kind here.

I hope this helps!

[RudeAwakening]

Personally, I would make an effort to forgive them. That's my opinion. In my case, I don't want to have to deal with any of these issues when I die - I have more interesting things to spend an eternity or two on. Plus, the purpose we come here is to learn how to forgive, so why not go for it while we're here.

Forgiveness isn't easy, but it is needed. Everyone forgives after they die - mostly people say that the greatest faults don't matter at that point. We are supposed to at least try though to forgive whilst here. It's like being kind - sure, it's easier to do in the Summerland, but the point is to learn how to be kind here.

I hope this helps!

I admit this seems reasonable to me as long as the effort itself is within reason and is likely to produce the desired result. As long as it doesn't involve opening a door better left closed and reliving the pain, fear and intense anger the events created, unless one's life is disrupted because of it and dealing with it is necessary. If the benefit to the victim outweighs the cost, in other words.

To assume that presumably successful efforts made to forgive on this side will automatically translate into not having to deal with something on the other side is a bit presumptuous in my opinion however. I'll take my chances and let my instincts guide me on who to forgive while still incarnate. I see that as the healthier aternative to trying to adopt some altruistic notion and supressing my true feelings. I'm gambling that being true to myself in this capacity will in fact result in less baggage on the other side.

To each his own, whatever works for us I guess.

[Andrew]

Hi again! Well, this is what I know for sure: after we die, we have to experience our lives again. During that process we MUST forgive everyone else, but must also forgive ourselves. So, wouldn't it be less work during the life review of we took the time to learn how to forgive now?

That's not to say that there will be no work needed on the other side, but it will be cut down significantly.

[RudeAwakening]

Hi again! Well, this is what I know for sure: after we die, we have to experience our lives again. During that process we MUST forgive everyone else, but must also forgive ourselves. So, wouldn't it be less work during the life review of we took the time to learn how to forgive now?

That's not to say that there will be no work needed on the other side, but it will be cut down significantly.

I already know how to forgive Andrew. I'm simply choosing to defer forgiving specific individuals.

For some grievances just letting go of the hate and recovering from the scars is sufficient in my opinion. And no, I don't think it will be less work during the life review. As far as taking the time to learn how to forgive NOW - I'm implying that in some cases it's not only not applicable but would do harm.

I just can't see myself walking up to a mother that's just lost her child to a vicious assault by some inhuman pig and suggesting to her that she should work hard to forgive that human garbage while she's still incarnate so it won't be such a nusiance on the other side. In this case I vote to defer forgiveness unless on some level this woman would find comfort in forgiving said pig.

[Andrew]

I already know how to forgive Andrew. I'm simply choosing to defer forgiving specific individuals.

For some grievances just letting go of the hate and recovering from the scars is sufficient in my opinion. And no, I don't think it will be less work during the life review. As far as taking the time to learn how to forgive NOW - I'm implying that in some cases it's not only not applicable but would do harm.

I just can't see myself walking up to a mother that's just lost her child to a vicious assault by some inhuman pig and suggesting to her that she should work hard to forgive that human garbage while she's still incarnate so it won't be such a nusiance on the other side. In this case I vote to defer forgiveness unless on some level this woman would find comfort in forgiving said pig.

It all comes down to this though - there are no bad people. Everyone is naturally good, just sometimes misled. Think of it this way: Yes, some people are jerks, but how do you know that you wouldn't have been the same way if you had loved their life? Plus, we have probably all done awful things in past lives. So, who's to say that we haven't committed the same crimes.

Essentially, Jesus said what getting a B is not good enough. "Be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." God loves us and forgives us despite our faults, and we should do the same to each other. It is healthy for us. Still though, it is understandable that some people aren't able to forgive - it's not the end of the world, they'll learn when they're ready, and it's not like it's going to send them to the Outer Darkness or anything. Nevertheless, if the work can be done on earth, Spirit seems to think that it's more productive to forgive here.

Think of it like an exam at the end of the school year. During the life review we have to master forgiveness of the earthly trespasses against us. But if we did that part before the exam (like a take-home essay), it would cut down the time that it would take to take the exam.

[RudeAwakening]

It all comes down to this though - there are no bad people. Everyone is naturally good, just sometimes misled. Think of it this way: Yes, some people are jerks, but how do you know that you wouldn't have been the same way if you had loved their life? Plus, we have probably all done awful things in past lives. So, who's to say that we haven't committed the same crimes.

Essentially, Jesus said what getting a B is not good enough. "Be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." God loves us and forgives us despite our faults, and we should do the same to each other. It is healthy for us. Still though, it is understandable that some people aren't able to forgive - it's not the end of the world, they'll learn when they're ready, and it's not like it's going to send them to the Outer Darkness or anything. Nevertheless, if the work can be done on earth, Spirit seems to think that it's more productive to forgive here.


Think of it like an exam at the end of the school year. During the life review we have to master forgiveness of the earthly trespasses against us. But if we did that part before the exam (like a take-home essay), it would cut down the time that it would take to take the exam.

This comes across to me as mainly religoius rhetoric and personal interpretation.

People have free will and often choose to be evil and many enjoy it. So while they are incarnate those are bad people that cause a lot of pain. Could I have been one in a past life or several lives, sure.

"Being perfect" is just more BS. We are not perfect beings, we live in a violent world. Is there anybody more screwed up than the little psychopath raised by a couple of disturbed devout lunatics stressing perfection?

No doubt forgiving friends and loved ones for being human while we're here is a no brainer. I can't imagine however that spirit would condone forgiveness here at any cost to the victim, especially when forgiving others on the other side is apparently a real piece of cake. Is there really anything significant to be gained by putting ourselves through the psychological torment of forgiving one that has done us such a vicious diservice when forgiving ourselves seems to be our biggest obstacle in life review?

What Jesus said 2,000 years ago and how it's been recorded and interpretated just doesn't mean that much to me and I'm not alone in that. Afterlife evidence is subjective and we as inidividuals need to be discerning about what is reasonable and what isn't. Suggesting an imperfect being try and lead a perfect life based on someone else's interpretation isn't reasonable and assuming a life forceably and rigidly led by this idea of perfection is going to result in less ******* baggage at "exam time" is a bit counterintuitive as well, because people that try to be perfect are some of the craziest ******* people I've ever encountered. :D

edit: LOL Andrew look at the time of both posts, yours is 354 and mine is 453 - lol.

[Andrew]

Yes, it is impossible to be 100% perfect while "in a body". I'm not perfect, you're not, no one is. The important thing seems to be that we try to be, and that is how we essentially acheive it. Essentially - "just try to live like Jesus lived" is the message I am trying to send. He showed that it was possible to forgive the most grievous offenses. As Roman soldiers nailed him to the cross, he said "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." He understood them and didn't judge them - just forgave them.

Also, that shows that people who make "evil" choices really don't know what they are doing. They are usually low-level beings who are spiritually-weak. We were all there at some point, I think. But, in each murderer and serial killer (as well as everyone else, naturally) there is a truly divine origin. Our natural state is perfection, is God, and even the lowliest will return to that state.

I just want to point that, if someone were actually evil by nature, then they wouldn't have free will. It would be their nature to commit crimes, not their will. Fortunately, no being has to suffer like that! Everyone grows out of it!

[RudeAwakening]

Yes, it is impossible to be 100% perfect while "in a body". I'm not perfect, you're not, no one is. The important thing seems to be that we try to be, and that is how we essentially acheive it. Essentially - "just try to live like Jesus lived" is the message I am trying to send. He showed that it was possible to forgive the most grievous offenses. As Roman soldiers nailed him to the cross, he said "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." He understood them and didn't judge them - just forgave them.

Also, that shows that people who make "evil" choices really don't know what they are doing. They are usually low-level beings who are spiritually-weak. We were all there at some point, I think. But, in each murderer and serial killer (as well as everyone else, naturally) there is a truly divine origin. Our natural state is perfection, is God, and even the lowliest will return to that state.

I just want to point that, if someone were actually evil by nature, then they wouldn't have free will. It would be their nature to commit crimes, not their will. Fortunately, no being has to suffer like that! Everyone grows out of it!

Very well said Andrew :)

[Andrew]

Thank you Awakening! :)

[papajohn]

Hello All!
It has been a while since I posted here, but I have been reading. I've had a few issues going on. The hardest thing to do is forgive yourself. If I sit here and think if there is anyone I am angry with, I can't think of anyone in over 50 Years except me. Some bad choices were made in the past that haunts me. Like Gypsy Blue those repeat in my head the older I get. It's been said over and over here that it is essential to forgive yourself. Well easier said then done. I'm working on it. I think it is great the amount of passion that lives on this forum. Sorry I've been gone so long,but does anyone here feel that the constant desire to talk about the next realm interferes with the daily life in this realm? Maybe it's me.

[vic smyth]

...does anyone here feel that the constant desire to talk about the next realm interferes with the daily life in this realm? Maybe it's me.

Somewhat. So I seek balance between my spiritual and worldly pursuits.

With Lovingkindness (metta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/buddharakkhita/wheel365.html#intro)),
vic

[RudeAwakening]

does anyone here feel that the constant desire to talk about the next realm interferes with the daily life in this realm? Maybe it's me.

Hi papajohn, it’s not just you, the answer would be yes for me as well, and I wouldn’t be surprised if this was fairly common. And, unlike Vic I'm not very good at balancing it with worldly pursuits.

Not only discussing it, but the research, awareness and promise of the spiritual world is very much a crutch for me. Decades of withdrawing from people for one reason or another have led me to a point where that realm is far more important to me than this one. If I were younger this would concern me, but that ship carrying all that cargo loaded with the disappointment and unrealistic expectations of others sailed long ago.

It’s a cop out maybe, but I am of the opinion that I’m far happier in spirit and will serve out the rest of my sentence here as comfortably as I can. Rather than deny what I know to be true I will make attempts to seek out other like minded people and continue to avoid a social existence that I find redundant, disappointing and superfluous. I never fit in this world and my existence here now seems to me to have been more of a job than a life. So yeah, lookin’ forward to going home when it’s time and I don’t have a problem with this seemingly bizarre obsession with the afterlife.

edit: The time of my post, where I'm located and logged in represents the one sequence 11:11. For me that would be confirmation of what I just said. I never attempt to manipulate that sort of thing, I don't have to and that would defeat its purpose.

[papajohn]

Hey RA, Sometimes I actually look forward to getting on this laptop and reading what you guys say. I get a sense of peace. Then I stop and think,"How healthy is this". I go to work,go out with some friends, not one person in the place cares a bit about this stuff. I second guess myself for liking this stuff,because I want this to be true. I am still a believer and not a knower like you or a Carol or a Andrew or a Roberta and so on. To a point where anxiety sets in and I start questioning any belief I ever had. My head wants to explode. That OMG moment I have been waiting for just eludes me. The vale between the 2 realms for me is a steel door. Then depression sets in and I just feel disconnected and lost. I NEED TO KNOW!! I DON'T NEED A PACIFIER to make be feel better. Physically I am fine spiritually and mentally I'm shot :( You can read for ever,but unless you actually experience first hand that indisputable moment questions will always arise. Thanks for letting me vent.

[Carol and Mikey]

Papajohn,
I have tried hard to keep a balance with this myself. Sometimes I feel like I am in 2 places. I have one son in Heaven and 1 son here on earth. My life has always been focused on my sons and their activities. I love being their mom! I believe balance between the 2 is healthy when you keep it all in perspective. Mikey wants you to know the veil is not a steel door. The more open you become, the more permeable the "door" becomes. I have found great peace and it has helped me immensely in my grief to learn about the afterlife. It has made me less fearful, I worry less, and I enjoy life more. I understand why things are the way they are. I accept life issues better. So I feel (at least for me) that learning these things has actually helped me quite a bit. I know it has made me a better person. Now I want to help others in the same way! :)
Carol

[Richard]

Dear Carol and Mikey I is my humble opinion that you are helping people more than you will ever know!

[Roberta Grimes]

Hey RA, Sometimes I actually look forward to getting on this laptop and reading what you guys say. I get a sense of peace. Then I stop and think,"How healthy is this". I go to work,go out with some friends, not one person in the place cares a bit about this stuff. I second guess myself for liking this stuff,because I want this to be true. I am still a believer and not a knower like you or a Carol or a Andrew or a Roberta and so on. To a point where anxiety sets in and I start questioning any belief I ever had. My head wants to explode. That OMG moment I have been waiting for just eludes me. The vale between the 2 realms for me is a steel door. Then depression sets in and I just feel disconnected and lost. I NEED TO KNOW!! I DON'T NEED A PACIFIER to make be feel better. Physically I am fine spiritually and mentally I'm shot :( You can read for ever,but unless you actually experience first hand that indisputable moment questions will always arise. Thanks for letting me vent.

Dear wonderful friend, I am sorry to have been away for the past few days - I was in Tucson and then in Mesa, Arizona, speaking with hundreds of wonderful people about these truths. It was a love-fest! I've got some catching up to do on a few threads, but I want especially to share some thoughts with you and Awakening and the others here. This is just my take:

1) Everyone needs the information that we share on these forums. Since I have spent my life thrilled to keep digging ever deeper into the afterlife evidence, I cannot imagine how thinking about these truths might interfere with anybody's life - but perhaps that's just me. Everyone has had or will have loved ones die, and everyone contemplates his own death. "In life we are in death" is true indeed! So just as we need to know how to drive a car or use the internet or do the multiplication tables in our heads, so we need basic knowledge of what death is and how the greater reality works just so we can live our best possible life. If everyone had the knowledge that we share here, there would be so much less earthly pain! Like Vic, I strive for balance in my life, but not because I find this information to be just an irrelevant hobby. No, it is central, basic information. (For me it is also the greatest hobby, the biggest giggle you can find on earth, and a reason to hurry out of bed each morning - but that's just me - I am high on these unexpectedly glorious fruits of a whole lifetime of study.)

2) These truths are not about death - they are about living. When you really begin to get what is going on, you can live a better and more complete life - and certainly a far happier life. Life has a happy ending, after all! Learning these truths turns what life used to be - a series of tragedies in a veil of tears, life sucks then you die - into a wondrous prelude that you are able to live more intensely and with more purpose. What we call death will be our true birth!

3) "Seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened..." Jesus makes us this promise, and I have found it to be true. You are troubled, dear wonderful PapaJohn - you really need to know these truths. But you keep second-guessing yourself and holding back and caring what other folks at work or in a bar might think of you. If they aren't interested in delving deeper into what reality actually is, then let them make whatever peace they can with life. You are living on a more profound level! Dear friend, if you will sincerely give yourself to the regular, disciplined, open-minded study of what actually is going on, then even without an OMG moment you will begin to internalize the truth. On your particular journey, you need to do this! You will have no peace without it. Please let us help you learn, dear wonderful friend!

This is my 1000th post here. I want to thank you all so much for your patience and friendship and for the joy of your company!

[Richard]

Congrats Roberta, and well put, I for one find the information about how this life is just a stage in our eternal journey very comforting and liberating, and in fact adding meaning to my life! Papa John, so many people are content living the unexamined life, you are different and unique, follow your heart, your curiosity, your intuition and your intellect, it is guiding you in the right direction!!!

[papajohn]

Thank you Carol,Roberta & Richard. I just have to stop second guessing myself. I guess when I internalize it seems to good to be true. I wait for the next shoe to drop,so I start doubting. I look around and I see all these "church goers" whether at Cathedrals,or Mega churches or Mosques or Temples or whatever and think are they all mis-guided and do I know something they don't? Or am I the one that is following information that is detrimental. Then I start questioning my actions on this journey and I become anxious and depressed for questioning my life long beliefs. I know that sounds foolish, but it is like playing baseball as a right handed batter for 10 years and trying to swing left handed. It just doesn't feel right and you are not comfortable. Does that make sense?? Thanks again for allowing me to vent!!

Hey Roberta, I'm honored to be your 1000th post :)

[Wonderer]

does anyone here feel that the constant desire to talk about the next realm interferes with the daily life in this realm? Maybe it's me.

Yes it does. I kinda feel isolated cause of this. My wife told me that she is sick of me talking about the afterlife stuff that I read about and learn every day. I try to share with her, but she is happy with her catholic life and does not want to listen to 'garbage'. So, nowadays, I have to keep it to myself as I have become 'boring'!

When I try to talk to my work mates about this, they laugh and think I'm a lunatic or a weirdo. So, again, nowadays I don't mention anything, withdraw to myself as I cant be bothered listing to their very shallow conversations.

In general, I love deep conversations but very very few like this. As a result, I feel I am living in a world of my own. Maybe deep down, I know I do not belong here and I'm more interested in the 'real' life. Or maybe I am just a weirdo ;)

As much as I can, I try to integrate with others and avoid mentioning or thinking about the afterlife, but at the end of the day I feel I don't belong.

Cheers
Wonderer

[RudeAwakening]

Yes it does. I kinda feel isolated cause of this. My wife told me that she is sick of me talking about the afterlife stuff that I read about and learn every day. I try to share with her, but she is happy with her catholic life and does not want to listen to 'garbage'. So, nowadays, I have to keep it to myself as I have become 'boring'!

When I try to talk to my work mates about this, they laugh and think I'm a lunatic or a weirdo. So, again, nowadays I don't mention anything, withdraw to myself as I cant be bothered listing to their very shallow conversations.

In general, I love deep conversations but very very few like this. As a result, I feel I am living in a world of my own. Maybe deep down, I know I do not belong here and I'm more interested in the 'real' life. Or maybe I am just a weirdo ;)

As much as I can, I try to integrate with others and avoid mentioning or thinking about the afterlife, but at the end of the day I feel I don't belong.

Cheers
Wonderer

Wonderer, I sympathize greatly with your frustrations. I love that expression Richard quoted “people are content living the unexamined life.” I have found this to be true with one of the most fearless and intelligent people I’ve ever known.

Electricity follows the path of least resistance and to my limited knowledge all forms of energy do. (We are energy) An unexamined life is the path of least resistance. The game changers throughout human history have always been those energies strong enough to weather the powerful current that is conformity and the need for acceptance. I think you’re smart not to further alienate yourself from what you consider to be shallow and frustratingly simple. A large percentage of the world’s population functions in this fashion. It’s necessary for survival.

I made the huge life mistake of never being able to accept this in others, but to use an appropriate metaphor/analogy: I could never pass for white anyway. :) Maybe see yourself as ahead of your time and approach it with the understanding a parent approaches the actions of a child. Nod and smile and make others feel good about themselves, this may create good energy that will nourish you as well. Trying to force someone to look at something they don’t want to just makes you someone to be avoided, you can’t drag somebody kicking and screaming out of their comfort zone. Now if I could only live up to that myself my life would suck a little less.

When the world around you is too much to take, just come get high here with us and join in the conversation.

[Wonderer]

Very well said, RudeAwakening, thanks :)

[papajohn]

Yes it does. I kinda feel isolated cause of this. My wife told me that she is sick of me talking about the afterlife stuff that I read about and learn every day. I try to share with her, but she is happy with her catholic life and does not want to listen to 'garbage'. So, nowadays, I have to keep it to myself as I have become 'boring'!

When I try to talk to my work mates about this, they laugh and think I'm a lunatic or a weirdo. So, again, nowadays I don't mention anything, withdraw to myself as I cant be bothered listing to their very shallow conversations.

In general, I love deep conversations but very very few like this. As a result, I feel I am living in a world of my own. Maybe deep down, I know I do not belong here and I'm more interested in the 'real' life. Or maybe I am just a weirdo ;)

As much as I can, I try to integrate with others and avoid mentioning or thinking about the afterlife, but at the end of the day I feel I don't belong.

Cheers
Wonderer
Hey Wonderer, Misery loves company. I feel your pain. Thanks for responding. Being a Catholic all my life I understand where your wife is coming from, but the older I get the closer I get to the ideas of this forum,so I understand the feeling of isolation. The isolation creates the anxiety. Learning to deal with that is a lesson in itself.

[Carol and Mikey]

Wonderer, I sympathize greatly with your frustrations. I love that expression Richard quoted “people are content living the unexamined life.” I have found this to be true with one of the most fearless and intelligent people I’ve ever known.

Electricity follows the path of least resistance and to my limited knowledge all forms of energy do. (We are energy) An unexamined life is the path of least resistance. The game changers throughout human history have always been those energies strong enough to weather the powerful current that is conformity and the need for acceptance. I think you’re smart not to further alienate yourself from what you consider to be shallow and frustratingly simple. A large percentage of the world’s population functions in this fashion. It’s necessary for survival.

I made the huge life mistake of never being able to accept this in others, but to use an appropriate metaphor/analogy: I could never pass for white anyway. :) Maybe see yourself as ahead of your time and approach it with the understanding a parent approaches the actions of a child. Nod and smile and make others feel good about themselves, this may create good energy that will nourish you as well. Trying to force someone to look at something they don’t want to just makes you someone to be avoided, you can’t drag somebody kicking and screaming out of their comfort zone. Now if I could only live up to that myself my life would suck a little less.

When the world around you is too much to take, just come get high here with us and join in the conversation.

RA,
I love this post! So true! I have decided to be a "game changer" and weather that powerful current! Whoever wants to come along for the ride on the Mikey Love Train, so be it! Not going to force anyone. All that I know is learning about the Afterlife has helped me understand life and it's challenges. It has made me more productive on my journey and I know I am a better person. Just trying to do my best! I have found several people who are very interested in this subject, which has helped. I have other family and friends who have no interest. I think it scares them. So I never bring it up. But as we go along in life, things happen and change. Life events as they occur bring people to wonder. They then start searching for answers. And we have them! So, for some, it is just a matter of time. I will just keep doing what I am doing. It makes me feel good! I know what is real and I have embraced it!
Carol

[papajohn]

Hey Carol, please don't misunderstand my post. I have always been the doubting Thomas. To my detriment. I so want not to be. I want to be liberated from all fear,anxiety and depression. I am determined to do just that. It may take more time for me than the normal Joe,but whats normal? So if you don't mined make room on that train of yours:)
I will show my tickets to the conductor,(MIKEY) and hop on. Please be patient with me.

[RudeAwakening]

RA,
I love this post! So true! I have decided to be a "game changer" and weather that powerful current! Whoever wants to come along for the ride on the Mikey Love Train, so be it! Not going to force anyone. All that I know is learning about the Afterlife has helped me understand life and it's challenges. It has made me more productive on my journey and I know I am a better person. Just trying to do my best! I have found several people who are very interested in this subject, which has helped. I have other family and friends who have no interest. I think it scares them. So I never bring it up. But as we go along in life, things happen and change. Life events as they occur bring people to wonder. They then start searching for answers. And we have them! So, for some, it is just a matter of time. I will just keep doing what I am doing. It makes me feel good! I know what is real and I have embraced it!
Carol

Well Carol and Mikey in spirit I am of the opinion that you literally hold in your hands game changing power. Do you think that what Mikey can do with the pendulum can be studied? Roberta has seen this personally, I wonder could this be considered an observable phenomenon. Mikey may be able to provide answers to questions that can be verified, answers his mother couldn't possibly know. I recall you saying the string on that pendulum actually goes stiff while Mikey operates it, would that be correct? And the two of you can produce this on demand and with ease?

I'm pretty sure I'm coming to Arizona this Spring, I'd love to see this in person. No doubt it would freak some people out. A few hundred years ago you and I both would have been victims of a witch hunt. I nearly was anyway just a few decades ago....:mad: :cool: See you all in April.

[Carol and Mikey]

Hey Papajohn,
There is no such thing as normal! I know I am not! I was not directing my post in any way at yours! Please know I understand where you are coming from. I too was raised Catholic. Questioned many things, etc. Went to a very strict high school. No worries! There is room on Mikey's love train so climb aboard! We will cruise along at a pace that works for you! :)
RA,
If you are in Pheonix in April, I will show you! I know I am not the only one that uses a pendulum. There are many out there I think. But Mikey does move it very distinctly and precisely. Many directions. I do no meditation. Nothing. I Just call his name and ask for God's protection. He identifies himself and we start. It is interesting to watch. I don't know if it is considered an "observable phenomenon". (Not sure what you mean by that.) All I know is you can see what he is spelling with your own eyes as he moves the pendulum on my small letter disc. It's like I am talking to him on the phone. Crazy but true. There have been several times that I have no idea what he is talking about. I will ask him, "are you sure I should post this? And he replies, "Mom, I am sure. Post it!" Believe me, I have learned a ton being on this forum! Having Roberta and Andrew confirm what he says amazes me. It has been quite the experience. :)
Carol

[Roberta Grimes]

Dear friends, all I can tell you about Carol is that she is a lovely person who is naive and clueless about most of what we discuss on these forums (or at least she was clueless a year ago ;-)). I met her at the Phoenix conference last year, and I went to her room with a three grieving moms because I was curious and because Carol is sweet and engaging and I didn't want to hurt her feelings. I did not for a minute believe that she could be doing what she claimed to be doing (sorry, Carol!). I was confounded by what I saw that day. She and Mikey literally collaborate over that pendulum: she chats to him, short-circuits the process by getting words after two pendulum swings, chuckles over their private jokes, and literally collaborates with Mikey in such a lively way that even before you hear what she is getting from him you think it has to be real - nobody is that good an actor! They busily and cheerfully gave wonderful messages to the three moms, moving two of them to tears. I got up and stood behind Carol to see what she was seeing as the pendulum moved. I interrupted to ask questions. By the end of an hour, I had learned something new: the dead can collaborate with us via pendulum! And again and again on these forums I have read posts from Carol that cannot possibly be from the Carol I met. She is channeling a genuine advanced being - no question in my mind about that. We love you, Carol and Mikey, and we are thrilled that you continue to grace these forums!

Where the Phoenix conference is concerned, I will be presenting and Carol will be there and Awakening will be there as well - and we hope that as many forums folks as possible can join us! It will be fun to spend time together in person. Please think about trying to join the party ;-).

[RudeAwakening]

I went back and looked at that afterlife conference again. Even driving from Vegas it’s a thousand dollar bill for me. I can afford it, but then I got to thinking about the economy and the prices here in Vegas. At the moment I can get a “suite” at a nice beautiful hotel on the Strip, discounts on plane tickets, two or three people to follow around behind me and sweep up the dead skin cells that fall off my body for less money.

This is what bothers me about this: I understand the suite hotel involved has overhead and isn’t located in someplace like Las Vegas, and I understand the speakers have expenses etc.

A thousand bucks, really? I’m right next door, take me 6 hours to get there by car. I don’t need a separate bedroom, all I need is a bed behind a door. This annoys me given the subject matter, what message are you big time spiritual people sending with these costs that are massively prohibitive to the general population?

[Andrew]

Hi Awakening! It is too bad that the conference cost is so expensive, although it is understandable given the expenses. I will not be attending either, due to the locations primarily.

I'm currently working on a solution to this, wherein people would be able to attend such a conference for free. Hopefully the fruits of my work will be available for the picking this summer. :)

[Richard]

Hello all, a solution would be to video tape Carol and Mikey, if there were amendable to it, you could most likely post it on this website!

[RudeAwakening]

Hi Awakening! It is too bad that the conference cost is so expensive, although it is understandable given the expenses. I will not be attending either, due to the locations primarily.

I'm currently working on a solution to this, wherein people would be able to attend such a conference for free. Hopefully the fruits of my work will be available for the picking this summer. :)

That's excellent Andrew. I will disagree about the costs being understandable though. The Embassy Suite Hotel in Phoenix, WTF people? The speakers look interesting to me, but not five hundred dollars a day interesting given that most of what is going to come out of their mouths I can find on the internet or an inexpensive book. I'm frankly a little disgusted.

Andrew I'm more than pleased that you are looking into realistic ways to bring this to more people. There's rooms in Vegas for less than 30 bucks a night with speaking rooms that will hold a thousand people. What expletive retard set this up anyway?

[RudeAwakening]

Hello all, a solution would be to video tape Carol and Mikey, if there were amendable to it, you could most likely post it on this website!

LOL Richard, yeah I would love to see it too. I suppose in order for something like that to come across well on video, it would take some planning and expertise. Carol is a busy lady and would have to seek out someone competent to do that. I would have no idea how to do it. I know the kids video stuff and put it up on youtube all the time, but this is pretty private too. If her and Mikey agree to put something up on here, I'm sure they would want to do it well.

[Carol and Mikey]

Hi Richard and RA,
I wish there was a way I could show people on the forum. But then does it go to Youtube and go viral where it gets out of control? I don't know anything about how all this computer stuff works. I worry about people coming after me . I may need to get a bigger dog! :)
Vegas is a great place for a conference. My hubby goes there for different conferences and it is soo inexpensive! Maybe we should do a "forum conference" there! Food for thought! It would be fun to meet everyone in person! And then I can show you how I do this talking with Mikey. Who knows! Maybe not a bad idea!
Carol

[Roberta Grimes]

That's excellent Andrew. I will disagree about the costs being understandable though. The Embassy Suite Hotel in Phoenix, WTF people? The speakers look interesting to me, but not five hundred dollars a day interesting given that most of what is going to come out of their mouths I can find on the internet or an inexpensive book. I'm frankly a little disgusted.

Andrew I'm more than pleased that you are looking into realistic ways to bring this to more people. There's rooms in Vegas for less than 30 bucks a night with speaking rooms that will hold a thousand people. What expletive retard set this up anyway?

I'm sorry, dear Awakening - I have simply agreed to present, and I had no idea what the Phoenix conference would cost to attend. (And no, I am not receiving a fee.) They are holding it there because the organizers are local and are older, but perhaps for next year they might try Vegas. I will mention your complaint to the organizers of both the Phoenix conference and the one being held in Virginia Beach this year, so perhaps they can try to make next year's conferences more convenient and affordable.

But as usual, dear friend, our wonderful Andrew has a better idea. I won't talk about it and steal his thunder, but he has anticipated your concerns and he is working on making conference-quality speakers and events available to everyone ;-)!

[RudeAwakening]

Thanks Roberta, that makes a lot of sense. I hope they are at least covering your expenses. So I'm just ranting and raving about a group of older folks in a costly scenic retirement community in Phoenix that are just putting a little afterlife conference together. Yeah, I can picture it. Regarding Vegas, it is absurdly cheap to convention/conference here and people don't need much of an excuse to come here either, making it more likely people will attend in much larger numbers. They are not even paying you a fee, I wonder how on earth they are justifying 400 bucks a head for sitting in on a few speakers.

[Roberta Grimes]

Thanks Roberta, that makes a lot of sense. I hope they are at least covering your expenses. So I'm just ranting and raving about a group of older folks in a costly scenic retirement community in Phoenix that are just putting a little afterlife conference together. Yeah, I can picture it. Regarding Vegas, it is absurdly cheap to convention/conference here and people don't need much of an excuse to come here either, making it more likely people will attend in much larger numbers. They are not even paying you a fee, I wonder how on earth they are justifying 400 bucks a head for sitting in on a few speakers.

It isn't profiteering, dear Awakening. I think the problem is that they are paying for general use of the facilities, and they are also (yes!) paying to transport and put up the speakers; and these places are expensive, as you point out! Part of what is wonderful about these two conferences is that they are very small - maybe a couple of hundred attendees - which means that you get to individually converse with, and even have dinner with, the biggest name in this fast-emerging field. But $400X200 is just $80,000 to cover (by my count) 24 speakers, at least one of whom is traveling internationally. If it costs them an average of $1000 per speaker - and my hunch is that it is costing more - then that leaves just $55,000 for supplies, staff, electronics, and the use of the facilities. I will be surprised if they break even!

[RudeAwakening]

It isn't profiteering, dear Awakening. I think the problem is that they are paying for general use of the facilities, and they are also (yes!) paying to transport and put up the speakers; and these places are expensive, as you point out! Part of what is wonderful about these two conferences is that they are very small - maybe a couple of hundred attendees - which means that you get to individually converse with, and even have dinner with, the biggest name in this fast-emerging field. But $400X200 is just $80,000 to cover (by my count) 24 speakers, at least one of whom is traveling internationally. If it costs them an average of $1000 per speaker - and my hunch is that it is costing more - then that leaves just $55,000 for supplies, staff, electronics, and the use of the facilities. I will be surprised if they break even!

I’m not implying outrageous profits here Roberta, I’m implying many other things such as -

And please accept my apology in advance for this, but my interests lie in getting these truths out, not catering to the country club crowd.

In essence this is nothing more than an elitist little conference. We’re paying for the golf course, the view and a hotel room with a separate bedroom. Honestly I couldn’t care less about the possibility of dining with the biggest name in this fast emerging field. Nor would the other four thousand people that would have attended to hear these very important messages if it were held somewhere in the realm of the reality of the average person.

People need this information more than ever with the US economy crumbling around them. If the economy wasn’t hanging by a thread this wouldn’t seem particularly unusual to me, even given the desperately needed subject matter that could change the lives of millions. So a whopping 200 people get to hear all this remarkable information, yeah they’ll probably tell a few others about it. How fast would the word spread if 2,500 people attended this conference for half the price in destination mecca like Las Vegas?

This elitist mentality is what brought this country down and this entire snooty little conference is a slap in the face of the real goals of people like you me and Andrew and the entire xxx xxxx spiritual universe. The probable fact that these organizers will be lucky to break even doesn’t conjure up images of philanthropic selflessness to me, only an out of touch elitist attitude that benefits no one. I can afford to go, but I won’t be a part of this.

Edit: Don't mistake my input and attitude here as anything but my gruff attention getting approach to something I feel is important. I'd love to drive down there in the spring and hang out on a nice golf course, meet Roberta and Carol and sip margaritas and listen to this interesting material and I'd probably do it for $700 total out of pocket. I estimate even driving there in a small car, plus taxes and misc. expenses will put me over the 1,000 mark and the 4 figure cost when I'm only 6 hours away is the burr under my saddle.

Move it to Vegas next year and go for bigger and cheaper and I will donate 150 hours of my time to be used in ways the organizers feel will benefit them and that I feel are reasonable.

[RudeAwakening]

I want to elaborate more on moving the conference to Vegas. The casinos here practically pay people to get on a plane and come here. I’ve heard of packages that put air fare at 150.00 dollars round trip from the Midwest. Room rates are absurdly reasonable especially if you’re putting together an all inclusive conference type rate. The mere suggestion that people will gamble here drives those costs down to practically free when compared to places like pretentious annoying Scottsdale, AZ.

We have a tourist count of over 30 million people every year because we make it absurdly cheap to come here. For the tourist, the Las Vegas Strip is Summerland on earth. The finest buffets and restaurants in the world, beautiful attractive people everywhere, free drinks, cheap food, incredibly opulent and stunning hotels filled with excited happy people, all for half the cost of sitting in a golf course suite hotel with little else to do but play golf and you can’t very well do that at night.

We could probably get local news coverage of this conference. There’s a lot of potential here for getting this scientifically proven information out there and having it spread. Isn’t that what we all want? You’re not going to change the world from Scottsdale, AZ.

[Birki]

I hear what you're saying RA, but to me the purpose of a conference such as the one in Phoenix is not to "get the word out". As you point out, there are much more effective (and cost effective) ways of doing so if that was the purpose. I have attended a lot of professional conferences over the years and I can barely remember the topics that were covered at any of them. I think the point of most conferences is to make connections in person with people who have similar interests. Sure, it could be done for less money and hopefully they will consider that in the future. Both conferences sound like they will be meaningful to the attendees and I don't begrudge them that. Perhaps we need to have our own "Afterlife forum conference" or meetup, or something. Maybe Andrew is working on something like this? :)

[Andrew]

I’m not implying outrageous profits here Roberta, I’m implying many other things such as -

And please accept my apology in advance for this, but my interests lie in getting these truths out, not catering to the country club crowd.

In essence this is nothing more than an elitist little conference. We’re paying for the golf course, the view and a hotel room with a separate bedroom. Honestly I couldn’t care less about the possibility of dining with the biggest name in this fast emerging field. Nor would the other four thousand people that would have attended to hear these very important messages if it were held somewhere in the realm of the reality of the average person.

People need this information more than ever with the US economy crumbling around them. If the economy wasn’t hanging by a thread this wouldn’t seem particularly unusual to me, even given the desperately needed subject matter that could change the lives of millions. So a whopping 200 people get to hear all this remarkable information, yeah they’ll probably tell a few others about it. How fast would the word spread if 2,500 people attended this conference for half the price in destination mecca like Las Vegas?

This elitist mentality is what brought this country down and this entire snooty little conference is a slap in the face of the real goals of people like you me and Andrew and the entire xxx xxxx spiritual universe. The probable fact that these organizers will be lucky to break even doesn’t conjure up images of philanthropic selflessness to me, only an out of touch elitist attitude that benefits no one. I can afford to go, but I won’t be a part of this.

Edit: Don't mistake my input and attitude here as anything but my gruff attention getting approach to something I feel is important. I'd love to drive down there in the spring and hang out on a nice golf course, meet Roberta and Carol and sip margaritas and listen to this interesting material and I'd probably do it for $700 total out of pocket. I estimate even driving there in a small car, plus taxes and misc. expenses will put me over the 1,000 mark and the 4 figure cost when I'm only 6 hours away is the burr under my saddle.

Move it to Vegas next year and go for bigger and cheaper and I will donate 150 hours of my time to be used in ways the organizers feel will benefit them and that I feel are reasonable.

If you are serious about committing time (I cannot tell if you're joking), I'll gladly put you in touch with the key organizers of either conference and suggest your idea to them. I know that one of them wants to have her conference out west next year anyway.

[RudeAwakening]

I hear what you're saying RA, but to me the purpose of a conference such as the one in Phoenix is not to "get the word out". As you point out, there are much more effective (and cost effective) ways of doing so if that was the purpose. I have attended a lot of professional conferences over the years and I can barely remember the topics that were covered at any of them. I think the point of most conferences is to make connections in person with people who have similar interests. Sure, it could be done for less money and hopefully they will consider that in the future. Both conferences sound like they will be meaningful to the attendees and I don't begrudge them that. Perhaps we need to have our own "Afterlife forum conference" or meetup, or something. Maybe Andrew is working on something like this? :)

I'm very interested in what Andrew is working on as well and hope he will clue us in soon as I'm really interested in knowing what the plan is for reaching so many so effectively for no cost.

Birki, I obviously understand what you are saying about this conference. My assertive behavior on the subject is not because I don’t get the general purpose of a conference like this. And I’m sure the conference will be meaningful to the attendees who find it worth the two grand it will cost most people to attend, that live more than 400 miles away. Forgive me if I’m not respectful of such a costly prohibitive conference on a subject of such importance to the general population. We’re not educating brain surgeons at this conference in the latest surgical techniques.

And let’s not forget the intimidation factor of such small elitist group. The average person, even if they could afford it, isn’t going to attend something like this. I don’t see this subject matter or the attendees in the same realm as I would a conference on auto parts that attracted people related to the industry. This isn’t an industry, it’s a movement and unless the majority of attendees are made up of people that are going to do something about it and affect it somehow, while I don’t begrudge the attendees, I find the whole thing frustratingly ineffective. Andrew isn’t going; I’m not going, although now it’s tempting to go just to assess the caliber of attendees.

I realize this is brand new and I’m being overly critical, I’m just trying to help get it off the floor.

[Andrew]

I hear what you're saying RA, but to me the purpose of a conference such as the one in Phoenix is not to "get the word out". As you point out, there are much more effective (and cost effective) ways of doing so if that was the purpose. I have attended a lot of professional conferences over the years and I can barely remember the topics that were covered at any of them. I think the point of most conferences is to make connections in person with people who have similar interests. Sure, it could be done for less money and hopefully they will consider that in the future. Both conferences sound like they will be meaningful to the attendees and I don't begrudge them that. Perhaps we need to have our own "Afterlife forum conference" or meetup, or something. Maybe Andrew is working on something like this? :)

I think that it is nice that the conferences are small, for now at least, people have a chance to really talk to the experts afterwards.

I am actually working on a conference as well, but an online one. Think of the potential there - people could attend for a much lower price (free), from the comfort of their own homes, and listen to experts. Of course, you cannot have dinner with the experts, but I think it will help a lot of people. 200 people will be able to attend, and the recording can be watched/listened to by everyone else!

Look for my announcement of such a conference in a few weeks. The event itself will probably be in July.

[RudeAwakening]

If you are serious about committing time (I cannot tell if you're joking), I'll gladly put you in touch with the key organizers of either conference and suggest your idea to them. I know that one of them wants to have her conference out west next year anyway.


Andrew, as far as possibly relocating a conference to Vegas, I assume that (in fact I'm sure of it) that the idea is or will be tossed around soon. I'm serious about putting in the time for something that will attract more than 200 people and has the potential to launch this effort more visibly. I want to be a foot soldier however, and behind the scenes in this effort, not up front and center. I have had more than my share of exposure in this city over the "paranormal" and have no wish to be overtly visibly connected at this time.

If and only if they actually decide to move a conference here similar to the one being offered in AZ, I will offer 150 hours in some form resembling grunt labor. I am not a people person, (obviously) I can be effective, but not at handling people with patient diplomacy. If they decide to bring it here Andrew, you have my email address. I don't need to be put in touch with anybody at this time. I'm just a monkey in Vegas with a big mouth that will help them get it on by offering my time.

[Andrew]

I think that the owners of the conference in AZ are probably going to keep their conference there. The conference is VA is the one that I think will move west. For clarification, the AZ one is the "Afterdeath Conference" whilst the VA one is the "Afterlife Conference" - they're not associated with each other.

Anyway, I'll remain vigilent and let you know if I hear anything about the conference coming to Vegas.

[RudeAwakening]

I think that the owners of the conference in AZ are probably going to keep their conference there. The conference is VA is the one that I think will move west. For clarification, the AZ one is the "Afterdeath Conference" whilst the VA one is the "Afterlife Conference" - they're not associated with each other.

Anyway, I'll remain vigilent and let you know if I hear anything about the conference coming to Vegas.

That works Andrew. Actually the afterlife conference looks like it would be more fun, rooms are 25% cheaper, conference is roughly 12% cheaper and it's on the beeaach! It looks like all events are open and you don't have to pick and choose which speakers to see. I didn't even look at it cause it's across the continent.

Golf courses - they should be illegal. Your generation will likely face a global clean water shortage and xxxxxxs are still building golf courses.

[Roberta Grimes]

That works Andrew. Actually the afterlife conference looks like it would be more fun, rooms are 25% cheaper, conference is roughly 12% cheaper and it's on the beeaach! It looks like all events are open and you don't have to pick and choose which speakers to see. I didn't even look at it cause it's across the continent.

Golf courses - they should be illegal. Your generation will likely face a global clean water shortage and xxxxxxs are still building golf courses.

I love your idea, dear wonderful Awakening! I am going to propose it to the organizers of both conferences, but I think the Afterlife Awareness Conference is likely to be a better fit. Cheap facilities, lots of attractions, great transportation hub! An afterlife conference in Las Vegas. I am amazed that nobody seems to have thought of it before you did!

[RudeAwakening]

I love your idea, dear wonderful Awakening! I am going to propose it to the organizers of both conferences, but I think the Afterlife Awareness Conference is likely to be a better fit. Cheap facilities, lots of attractions, great transportation hub! An afterlife conference in Las Vegas. I am amazed that nobody seems to have thought of it before you did!

Ah shucks, (kicks invisible stone) you just took all the fiesty meaness right out of me, I was so enjoying being cranky. I'm down for the 150 hours if that helps any, my schedule should remain flexible hopefully indefinitely.

They don't want to make use of me in any capcity that requires a charming engaging personality or considerable diplomacy. People don't look at me and say to themselves "I'd like to meet her." ;) I'm one of those people you have to know. I'm a good grunt and been here all my life, but my contacts are limited cause well, you have to nurture that sort of thing and genuinely enjoy being around a variety of people.

I can see to things that take a physical presence and some sort of effort, distributing fliers, that sort of thing. If I'm going to be involved I want this to be something I can be proud of.