Where is God in all this?

[RunningV]

I had to wait a while to post this so I could read over the threads and background info to make sure I had you right. Do you all really believe in a heaven where God just stands back and lets the dead judge each other, or even themselves? I can't imagine how that would be work, or how it could be right. If God doesn't get involved with these affairs at the very seat of his power, what is he doing? Is he just some kind of cosmic voyeur?>?

[Roberta Grimes]

Hi RunningV! The discussions in these forums are generally based on almost 200 years of abundant and amazingly consistent afterlife evidence. I think I speak for most people who frequent these forums when I say that no one here is trying to change anyone's beliefs. Many of us, though, really want to know. So in what I will tell you here, please understand that I am not trying to persuade you about anything! You have asked some wonderful questions, and you deserve the best answers that I can give you - whether it makes sense to you or not is up to you. Here is what I have learned from decades of studying the afterlife evidence:

1) God is actually the only thing that's real. For us to ask where God is would be a bit like a school of fish asking where the water is!

2) The dead don't judge each other. Instead, at death each of us judges ourselves. This surprised me too, at first, but I have never seen a single instance of God's ever judging anyone. At this point, I don't believe that any such accounts exist. Actually, if you read the Gospels closely, Jesus actually tells us this. He says, Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.” (JN 5:21-23) Then he says, “You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.” (JN 8:15)

3) The earth is a school in which we are meant to learn to love perfectly and learn to forgive completely. The Gospels are full of Jesus's lessons in love and forgiveness! And we realize after we die that a main reason for our forgiveness lessons here is to prepare us eventually to forgive ourselves. Those who have been through life-reviews tell us how very hard it is to forgive ourselves for our mistakes, however small they may be. And Jesus tell us that as well. He says, “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” (MT 7:1-2)

- In these forums we don't talk much about beliefs, but rather we discuss and try to understand what the afterlife evidence is telling us. A lot of it is surprising to all of us, dear RunningV. But the news is all wonderful! The afterlife revealed by the evidence is glorious beyond what most of us ever have imagined. Jesus tells us that God knows how to give good things to His children, and that turns out to be wonderfully true!

[RunningV]

It's nice to talk about the afterlife being totally non-threatening for everyone, but where does that leave the whole idea of Christ's salvation? You're basically saying almost all of Christianity is wrong, and that both sinners and saved end up in paradise no matter what they did or believed in life. Why does Jesus mention hellfire if nobody ever goes there?

You say that you don't talk about beliefs, but what about the fact that you believe what unknown spirits and mystics tell you about the afterlife even when it contradicts God's Word?

[Firebird]

I really, really don't want to start a religious flamewar in here, so please don't highlight the following text if you think you might get offended by somebody questioning your beliefs:

When I see people saying things like the above, declaring this or that must be wrong because it "contradicts god's word" it makes me want to explode from the irony generated. Consider: you're denouncing the idea that your (perfectly good, omniscient, omnipotent) god might not be the kind of monster that sends people to eternal torture because they didn't believe in the correct things, all because a book (as written, assembled, and interpreted by ancient church authorities) seems to support that scenario? If God is so great and powerful, then any wrong that a single person could ever commit can't possibly have the slightest significance for him, so why would he ever be compelled to pass judgement? Overall, Roberta's position seems to make a lot of logical and ethical sense, even if I don't personally believe in them.

Okay, all done. RunningV, please don't take this as an attack, I just wanted to clear the air a little.

[Roberta Grimes]

Hi Firebird! I don't know whether you meant there to be text there in the blank space just above...?

Dear RunningV, the afterlife is not "non-threatening for everyone." People who die feeling guilty generally fare poorly in the afterlife, at least initially, which is one reason why it is so important that we learri to forgive others while we are here - because then we are more likely to be able to forgive ourselves.

My friend, the afterlife evidence is consistent across nearly 200 years, and it is overwhelming. It isn't mystics communicating with us, but instead it is literally thousands of regular people who have gone ahead of us and in various ways have been able to get word to us of how they are faring. Nowhere in all this evidence have I ever seen a single instance of God's ever judging anyone, nor have I seen any hint at all that you have to be a Christian to get into heaven. I haven't seen anything that suggests that the Christian doctrine of sacrificial redemption actually happens. And what to me is just as important is the fact that Jesus doesn't talk about sacrificial redemption in the Gospels, either! He tells us repeatedly that He came to us as our teacher, and in fact the perfect love and forgiveness that Jesus teaches throughout the Gospels turn out to be exactly what the afterlife evidence shows that we are on earth to learn.

All of this was tough for me, too, at first. I have always been an earnest Christian - I have read the Bible through so many times that I can recite parts of it now by heart. And I would not for a moment suggest that anyone change religious beliefs that feel right and comfortable!

As for me, now I just follow Jesus. I consider His word to be God's word. Each of us is on an individual path, dear RunningV! If you are more comfortable with the teaching that Jesus came to die for your sins, then all I ask is that you try not to judge others who are following the dictates of their own consciences. Jesus tells us that we must not judge, and in that (as in so much else) the afterlife evidence proves Him right!

[Firebird]

It's not actually blank; I just made it the same color as the background so people could easily choose not to read it. If you click and drag downward (from the top of my post to the bottom), the text should become visible.

[Roberta Grimes]

That is so clever, Firebird!

For any Christian who studies the afterlife evidence, finding that it contradicts the Christian doctrine of sacrificial redemption is a shock at first. The afterlife revealed by the evidence is so closely consistent with the Gospel teachings of Jesus, and it reveals a God so infinitely powerful and so beyond-perfectly loving that Christians find it all familiar and reassuring... but then we notice this tremendous gap. We become more vigilant, looking for any sign at all that the doctrine might after all be right. We look for signs of a fiery hell or an actual devil, and find none. We start to notice little hints that this lack of adherence to Christian doctrines has been noticed by others, and perhaps has troubled them - for example, I have seen a few cases where a dead person has refused to "come to the microphone" and communicate through a medium, and has given as a reason the fact that what he or she had to say would reveal a heaven so different from the family's beliefs that the dead person didn't want to trouble the living with it.

For me, it took prayer and doing much more research to finally get to the point of being able to say it publicly. And then I found that saying it felt liberating! God actually is perfect love! I can remember the shame I felt as a small child when I first learned that I had been so bad that Jesus had to be nailed to a cross so God could forgive me and let me into heaven... and now, more than fifty years later, I learn that after all that story isn't true and God loves me perfectly after all! For a few years I was drunk on the joy of it. Now, though, I more soberly realize that if Christians prefer to believe that Jesus died for them personally, then it is not productive for anyone to try to change that old belief.

I simply suggest that anyone who wants to better understand death - and thereby begin really to understand life - ought to open-mindedly study the evidence. Just read what we have been told by the dead over nearly 200 years, and draw your own conclusions... but know that with or without the sacrificial redemption concept, the evidence proves that Jesus is at the center of God's plan for us, no matter what our religion might be!